What are the Negative effects of Gold compounding ?

[Friendshipspren]

So Wax infers from miles's constant compounding that it would be detrimental to him if he were to stop . What exactly would be the consequences ? We know intensive brass compounding can lead to heatstrokes and even death . But that's only if they compound brass too much. Miles doesn't seem to have a problem with that . 

Is Wax even correct in his deduction ? Will there be withdrawal effects and maybe permanent damage ? 

What about the other metals ? 

Even if there are negative effects , is it as bad as allomantic savanthood with respect to tin or pewter ? 

[Calderis]

The way its presented in the books comes across as Common belief and/or hearsay. 

Quote

He was said to keep the healing running constantly. From what Waxillium knew of Compounding, it could be very dangerous to stop once you’d started.

But we see nothing in the books that says either is true. Compounding doesn't require a continuous tap. The strength in compounding is the ability to store the excess product of burning so that you can have as much of a trait available as you want. Other than that line about adverse effects of stopping, we see nothing else in the books anywhere to imply that's the case, and I'm very skeptical. For one thing, Brandon has no plans for Feruchemical Savantism and says, after alloy, that he's never written one. 

Quote

Kurkistan

Is there such a thing as a Feruchemical savant?

Brandon Sanderson

I did not write Feruchemical savants into the original outline. Whether or not I will do them- it’s highly unlikely because it’s not there and Mistborn is getting trickier and trickier in that regard. But I didn’t write them in, so… that’s a “probably not”.

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

So miles wasn't a Savant... And if he's not a Savant why would stopping be an issue? 

I can see arguments for a psychological addiction, or the risks of his perception having removed his ability to feel pain causing major health risks... But he should have functioned just fine. 

[Quantus]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The way its presented in the books comes across as Common belief and/or hearsay. 

But we see nothing in the books that says either is true. Compounding doesn't require a continuous tap. The strength in compounding is the ability to store the excess product of burning so that you can have as much of a trait available as you want. Other than that line about adverse effects of stopping, we see nothing else in the books anywhere to imply that's the case, and I'm very skeptical. For one thing, Brandon has no plans for Feruchemical Savantism and says, after alloy, that he's never written one. 

While I know this is Technically the correct answer ("the Best Kind of Correct") it still bothers me. This WOB is a Doylistic statement about what he expects to include from a narrative complication stand-point, not a statement of what is theoretically possible (like we often get for things that will still never actually happen).  But from a pure cosmere theory, while I can accept that standard Feruchemy would naturally limited and so not be capable of creating Savants, Compounding (specifically) should be entirely capable of causing savantism just like allomancy, because the part of Allomancy that causes it (channeling huge amounts of Investiture being supplied by Preservation) is the part of Allomancy that Compounding share.  Unless there is something very specific about feruchemy that actually prevents investiture overload from warping the spiritweb, Compounding Savants should be entirely possible even if they are never intended to appear on stage.

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So miles wasn't a Savant... And if he's not a Savant why would stopping be an issue? 

I can see arguments for a psychological addiction, or the risks of his perception having removed his ability to feel pain causing major health risks... But he should have functioned just fine. 

Even if he's not technically a Savant (defined as somebody who's Spiriweb has been warped by overuse of Investiture) there could conceivably be downsides to long-term overuse of Gold. I imagine a two-stage Addiction:  First is psychological addiction where you compound Gold to tap it so freely that you get addicted to the energy "high" that Bloodmakers typically get when they tap Gold with no wounds to heal. Second is much closer to an actual physical addiction where you've let the the lack of a limiting Fill requirement allow you to Tap F-Gold constantly, which over the long term is going to leave you without much in the way of a functioning immune system, basically as if you'd been living in a hyper-sterile bubble that whole time.  That's a downside, but not really Savantism. It's more on the level of how Wax is constantly filling weight, so he spends all his waking hours weighing 75% of his usual weight, so logically he is going to have less muscle mass than he otherwise would have developed in the same timeframe.   And a bloodmaker that had been burning constantly (whether it's advisable or not) could also easily be so used to the Gold-healing constantly preventing the sensations of pain, fatigue, etc that they'd loose the ability to feel them in general, but also likely loose the ability to function normally without that constant buffer against sensation.  

 

 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

The easiest solution to this question can be easily answered when you realize Miles is a savant. When you compound you are making a new allomantic metal so just like  Spook’s constant tin Mile’s constant gold has caused savantism. As for how it would effect him i’d suspect it’s like a pewterarm but much worse.

Quantas covered the other points quite well.

Edit: to clarify he isn’t a F-savant but he is a A-savant because he burns so much charged gold to store in his metalminds

Edited September 16, 2019 by Truthwatcher_17.5

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

to clarify he isn’t a F-savant but he is a A-savant because he burns so much charged gold to store in his metalminds

I still disagree. 

He's not an A-gold savant, because he doesn't use that often, and his gold is no different than when we see Vin use it. 

He's not an F-gold savant, as Brandon says he hasn't written one if those. 

Compounding does essentially create a new allomantic metal... Which produces a feruchemical trait. Savantism is an effect of the power produced, so a compounder should become a Savant of the feruchemical power. 

[HSuperLee]

Honestly if I had to guess, the idea of stopping compounding being dangerous probably results from what happened to TLR when he stopped compounding atium. So while it may be dangerous with that particular metal, I don't see why it would be an issue with others, but I see how rumors could be circulated.

[Friendshipspren]

19 hours ago, Quantus said:

.  That's a downside, but not really Savantism. It's more on the level of how Wax is constantly filling weight, so he spends all his waking hours weighing 75% of his usual weight, so logically he is going to have less muscle mass than he otherwise would have developed in the same timeframe.    .  

 

 

Really , wax has less muscle . Oh yeah it's like how astronauts suffer from muscular atrophy during prolonged habitation in low gravity environments. Damnation I never thought of that.  And here I was thinking storing weight was harmless and wondering why Wax only stored 25% instead of like 90% 

Edited September 17, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Elsecaller_17.5]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

I still disagree. 

He's not an A-gold savant, because he doesn't use that often, and his gold is no different than when we see Vin use it. 

He's not an F-gold savant, as Brandon says he hasn't written one if those. 

Compounding does essentially create a new allomantic metal... Which produces a feruchemical trait. Savantism is an effect of the power produced, so a compounder should become a Savant of the feruchemical power. 

With respect, savantism is a result of too much investiture overcharging your system. You don’t have to worry about it with Feruchemy because that investiture is coming from your own body, just at different tunes and rates. Compounding fuels Feruchemy with allomancy and it still results in drastically more investiture flowing through the body which can cause savantism.

[Calderis]

51 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

With respect, savantism is a result of too much investiture overcharging your system. You don’t have to worry about it with Feruchemy because that investiture is coming from your own body, just at different tunes and rates. Compounding fuels Feruchemy with allomancy and it still results in drastically more investiture flowing through the body which can cause savantism.

I understand exactly what Savantism is, and I agree it should be possible. 

But it is a result of the specific way in which the power warps your Spiritual Aspect. All use of allomancy, whether for a typical metal or compounding, is drawing on the exact same power. It's all power flowing from Preservation right up until it hit the metal and is shaped into a product. Yet you don't become a Savant of Preservation's power, you become a Savant of that particular product. 

Spook was warped by the way that the power of Tin warped his Spiritual. Likewise, if Miles were a Savant, he'd be a Savant of feruchemical gold because that is the power he was continually producing. He'd done it long enough that if feruchemical Savantism is a thing he should have been one, yet Brandon says he hasn't made one and has no plans to. 

Maybe the fact that Feruchemy is using traits natural to the human spiritweb mitigates the warping effects. Maybe this will be retconned later. But for the time being, I have to go by what Brandon's said, and that means Miles was not a Savant. 

[Quantus]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I understand exactly what Savantism is, and I agree it should be possible. 

But it is a result of the specific way in which the power warps your Spiritual Aspect. All use of allomancy, whether for a typical metal or compounding, is drawing on the exact same power. It's all power flowing from Preservation right up until it hit the metal and is shaped into a product. Yet you don't become a Savant of Preservation's power, you become a Savant of that particular product. 

Spook was warped by the way that the power of Tin warped his Spiritual. Likewise, if Miles were a Savant, he'd be a Savant of feruchemical gold because that is the power he was continually producing. He'd done it long enough that if feruchemical Savantism is a thing he should have been one, yet Brandon says he hasn't made one and has no plans to. 

Maybe the fact that Feruchemy is using traits natural to the human spiritweb mitigates the warping effects. Maybe this will be retconned later. But for the time being, I have to go by what Brandon's said, and that means Miles was not a Savant. 

Now that you mention it, I could easily see an argument that F-Gold would specifically be less likely to produce Savantism than almost any other form of Feruchemy.  Unlike most of the other ones that are skewing some aspect of the Spiritweb one way or another, tapping F-Gold is all about channeling Investiture to Assert the Spiritweb itself, to Reinforce it.  The "warping" description of Savantism implies bending the spiritweb out of it's true shape, but Gold (specifically) does not put the Spiritweb under that sort of stress. 

In theory, anyway.  But if it's true that some feruchemy would be capable while others would not, I would have to assume that Atium would be in the "Can" category since it's very specifically fighting against the Spiritweb's true Age in an ever-increasing amount.   At which point, we could reasonably assume that if feruchemical savantism were possible, The Lord Ruler should have been an atium savant, if he was constantly burning enough age to hold the clock back by a 1000 years.  Which might be another bit of support for the idea that feruchemy innately mitigates that sort of thing even with the shear amount of Investiture being channeled. 

[Scion of the Mists]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

Now that you mention it, I could easily see an argument that F-Gold would specifically be less likely to produce Savantism than almost any other form of Feruchemy.  Unlike most of the other ones that are skewing some aspect of the Spiritweb one way or another, tapping F-Gold is all about channeling Investiture to Assert the Spiritweb itself, to Reinforce it.  The "warping" description of Savantism implies bending the spiritweb out of it's true shape, but Gold (specifically) does not put the Spiritweb under that sort of stress. 

I kind of doubt this. The most obvious example of savantism’s downsides come from Soulcasting, which does not seem to involve modifying your own Spiritweb. And we know that cosmere healing wouldn’t fix that, per this WoB, because there’s “nothing wrong” with you. 

[Quantus]

Just now, Scion of the Mists said:

I kind of doubt this. The most obvious example of savantism’s downsides come from Soulcasting, which does not seem to involve modifying your own Spiritweb. And we know that cosmere healing wouldn’t fix that, per this WoB, because there’s “nothing wrong” with you. 

I think that's a bad comparison, Soulcasting is an External application of Investiture with an External Power Source, it has all the same elements needed for Savantism that Allomancy has.  I was talking about Feruchemy specifically, where the Investiture expenditure is still entirely Internal (again, specifically with F-Gold).  The comparison to Surges would be whether it is possibel to become a Savant through extreme over-use of a Progression Fabrial the way you can with a Soulcasting Fabrial.  Which would actually be a great question to ask if anyone gets a chance.  

[Calderis]

Even as an external device and an external target, that example is still passing through the user, or there would be no warping and no Savantism at all. 

[Quantus]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Even as an external device and an external target, that example is still passing through the user, or there would be no warping and no Savantism at all. 

Agreed, I just meant that (if the theory is true) any external effect should cause savantism, and also any Internal effect that is Altering rather than Reinforcing the person (most of them. So to my mind just about all allomancy, and most feruchemy.  But not Gold/Health, maybe not Identity?  Im not sure but it would be a very few that would be theoretically in tune with the natural state of the spiritweb to avoid the warping issue.  In a Rosharan example, I'd expect even Radiant Soulcasters to have a danger of Savantism (thought I could certainly be wrong), but I would not expect a Radiant to develop Savantism from over-use of their base Stormlight Healing ability.  And I could honestly see the argument going either way in the case of Progression.  

[atiummisting17]

I'd like to think that constant use of gold accelerates cell death, as cells can only divide so many times. By making cells constantly multiply, you shorten your lifespan.

[Friendshipspren]

4 hours ago, atiummisting17 said:

I'd like to think that constant use of gold accelerates cell death, as cells can only divide so many times. By making cells constantly multiply, you shorten your lifespan.

Yeah that makes sense. Nice point . Also welcome to the shard 

Edited September 21, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, atiummisting17 said:

I'd like to think that constant use of gold accelerates cell death, as cells can only divide so many times. By making cells constantly multiply, you shorten your lifespan.

Miles had been using gold for years, and was not aging any faster than normal. 

[atiummisting17]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Miles had been using gold for years, and was not aging any faster than normal. 

It wouldn't be visual aging; most changes to appearance as you get older are caused by sun damage, and gravity's cruel pull on your body to make it sag. He'd likely die from old age while still looking like your average 50 year old.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, atiummisting17 said:

It wouldn't be visual aging; most changes to appearance as you get older are caused by sun damage, and gravity's cruel pull on your body to make it sag. He'd likely die from old age while still looking like your average 50 year old.

I don't think that it works that way. (spoilering the full WoB for non Mistborn stuff, followed by the relevant portion) 

Spoiler

Iceblade44

So White Sand [then Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Khriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flippin' immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

There is some time-dilation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

Faera

Implying that some are actually immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

Quote

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Gold, and similar healing in the Cosmere will heal the physical body to match the Spiritual ideal of a person, which includes age related problems... But their life is not altered otherwise. 

Just like TLR tricked his Spiritual into thinking he was younger, and didn't die as a consequence, this heals to match the Spiritual age and ideal. 

The Physical limitations are circumvented by Investiture. 

[blackout8444]

On 9/16/2019 at 3:02 PM, Quantus said:

  And a bloodmaker that had been burning constantly (whether it's advisable or not) could also easily be so used to the Gold-healing constantly preventing the sensations of pain, fatigue, etc that they'd loose the ability to feel them in general, but also likely loose the ability to function normally without that constant buffer against sensation.  

To be noted, the lack of pain is not a cause of tapping F-gold. That is something that happened to Miles specifically. We know this because Wayne does feel pain while tapping F-gold.

 

 

On 9/20/2019 at 2:58 PM, atiummisting17 said:

I'd like to think that constant use of gold accelerates cell death, as cells can only divide so many times. By making cells constantly multiply, you shorten your lifespan.

I find this unlikely. It could be possible with compounders, but Feruchemy only puts out what you get in. Therefore, you would have cells multiply slower while storing and faster while tapping, and it would balance out.

[atiummisting17]

2 hours ago, blackout8444 said:

I find this unlikely. It could be possible with compounders, but Feruchemy only puts out what you get in. Therefore, you would have cells multiply slower while storing and faster while tapping, and it would balance out.

That balance is only maintained when you are a regular Gold Ferring. A Gold Compounder is pulling out more cell division and Immune system strength than they put in, especially if they constantly tapped Gold like Miles did.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, atiummisting17 said:

That balance is only maintained when you are a regular Gold Ferring. A Gold Compounder is pulling out more cell division and Immune system strength than they put in, especially if they constantly tapped Gold like Miles did.

Again. See the WoB above. Gold does not effect age. 

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, blackout8444 said:

To be noted, the lack of pain is not a cause of tapping F-gold. That is something that happened to Miles specifically. We know this because Wayne does feel pain while tapping F-gold

Very true, I was referring to Compounding Gold (ie Burning it) the way Miles could being a Twinborn. 

[blackout8444]

On 9/22/2019 at 6:54 PM, Calderis said:

Again. See the WoB above. Gold does not effect age. 

Specifically note that using F-gold taps into the spiritual ideal. Therefore, we can reasonably assume that the cells would also match the ideal and would stay the way they should be.

[Quantus]

9 hours ago, blackout8444 said:

Specifically note that using F-gold taps into the spiritual ideal. Therefore, we can reasonably assume that the cells would also match the ideal and would stay the way they should be.

The way they should be for the given Age that their spiritual aspect believes they should be.   But no amount of Gold would have saved the Lord Ruler from his true age, compounded or not.