Theory about Shardnumbers

[Ripheus23]

Not every Shard has a "magic number," but some of them do, and it seems to be for a reason. This is my theory. *Law and Order sound*

OK, I was trying to think of why 10 is important to Honor/Cultivation/Roshar (even before the Shards). Some people have speculated that if 5 is Edgli's number, then Edgli might have a role in the Rosharan system, since 10 = 5 * 2. However, consider that Odium has gone after several pairs of Shards. I was thinking: in the Rosharan system, 5 is derivative. There's a WoB if I'm not mistaken that says the Nalthis quantification of Investiture is going to be kind of "standardized" cosmere-wise, or is the standard technically, or something.

So, let's say 5 is actually the base level of a Shard's power. I know, the base is "infinite" but we're told none of them can use it all at once, or what. On Roshar, Honor and Cultivation have merged their powers (or had merged them, rather). On Scadrial, the Shards ended up fighting, but they created extremely powerful systems of systems of magic. But Rosharan Surgebinding is at level 10 of itself, and divides into two 5s due to the base for the two Shards, except now Odium added -1 to the equation, so to say, and moreover broke the 5s apart. IDK if the Dor was combined before the fall of its Shards, but let's say it is otherwise a full combination but Odium imposed a -1 on it, so reduced its power to 9, too.

Ambition might've had a method for increasing her level without taking up another Shard. That would've been a worry for Odium, in this context. Harmony, for example, is at a strong 10. In the other cases, even if the Shards didn't merge as the Vessels, then even when they were combined, they were still across two Vessels. (So Honor "didn't break the agreement" or what.)

• Does it matter? Maybe not, but let's say it gives us a way to rank the powers of different magic systems. So:
• Odium: seems to be "at" 9 somehow, maybe.* Or -1, also, or something. I suspect Aona and Skai were physically killed, like they were concentrated in a physical form when they were killed, since if they were in the Spiritual Realm more, why would Odium have had to push the Shards into the Cognitive to prevent them from being accessed? So, let's say per Shard he can -1 their power. So the Dor (e.g. as the extreme of Elantrian magic) is at an 8 or a 9. Likewise, Roshar's is at a 9 (only Honor is dead). Pre-Harmony, the Metallic Arts would have been each 5, except maybe Feruchemy would've been 10 (the ambivalence about it being the "really" end-neutral example, here). But under Harmony, though seemingly limited in some ways, it's probably at a straight 10.
• Endowment's system is probably straight 5.
• Threnody has no determinate system. Let's say it's just morbidly set to -1...
• Patji's system, for all we know, is at 0. Maybe all of Autonomy's offworld systems are at 0, as they don't count as from Shards in themselves. Taldain could just be at 5.
• *I have a quick idea: Autonomy didn't directly help Odium ever, but at some point in deep history, she did give him something that has helped him since, and she didn't make enough effort to figure out how terribly her decision could turn out. So let's say that Autonomy gave him something that sets him to 9, i.e. not something like a full other Shard, but maybe a massive pocket of some Investiture of hers she'd awoken...
• If this idea carries over, it's possible that Shards increase power in quanta of 5, if they take up another Shard. So the maximum would be 80? Or there's a geometrical increase, or who knows. Still, this doesn't explain why Scadrial's number is 16 (or the original number assigned to Adonalsium, or whatever...).

[Karger he/him]

I don't realy understand what your talking about.  I am a bit tired but a feel like I am reading some pythagorean cult document.  Anyone share the feeling or am I just unusually stupid at the moment?

[Ripheus23]

No, I AM in a Pythagorean cult.

Not even totally joking...

[Karger he/him]

45 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

No, I AM in a Pythagorean cult.

Not even totally joking...

So you are a bean hating vegetarian who wants to restrict knowledge of the square root of two?

[Ripheus23]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

So you are a bean hating vegetarian who wants to restrict knowledge of the square root of two?

Actually, not too far off either... But I want to restrict knowledge of the infinitieth root of 2 

[Karger he/him]

20 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

But I want to restrict knowledge of the infinitieth root of 2

So the number 1?

[Ripheus23]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

So the number 1?

Mwahahaha my restriction is working, everyone thinks it's 1, when it's really ~1, which is like -1 except ~1^infinity = mwahahahaha

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

Mwahahaha my restriction is working, everyone thinks it's 1, when it's really ~1, which is like -1 except ~1^infinity = mwahahahaha

Infinite Root of 2 = 2^1/infinity  1/infinity = 0 2^0=1

[Rushu42 she/her]

12 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Not every Shard has a "magic number," but some of them do, and it seems to be for a reason. This is my theory. *Law and Order sound*

OK, I was trying to think of why 10 is important to Honor/Cultivation/Roshar (even before the Shards). Some people have speculated that if 5 is Edgli's number, then Edgli might have a role in the Rosharan system, since 10 = 5 * 2. However, consider that Odium has gone after several pairs of Shards. I was thinking: in the Rosharan system, 5 is derivative. There's a WoB if I'm not mistaken that says the Nalthis quantification of Investiture is going to be kind of "standardized" cosmere-wise, or is the standard technically, or something.

So, let's say 5 is actually the base level of a Shard's power. I know, the base is "infinite" but we're told none of them can use it all at once, or what. On Roshar, Honor and Cultivation have merged their powers (or had merged them, rather). On Scadrial, the Shards ended up fighting, but they created extremely powerful systems of systems of magic. But Rosharan Surgebinding is at level 10 of itself, and divides into two 5s due to the base for the two Shards, except now Odium added -1 to the equation, so to say, and moreover broke the 5s apart. IDK if the Dor was combined before the fall of its Shards, but let's say it is otherwise a full combination but Odium imposed a -1 on it, so reduced its power to 9, too.

Ambition might've had a method for increasing her level without taking up another Shard. That would've been a worry for Odium, in this context. Harmony, for example, is at a strong 10. In the other cases, even if the Shards didn't merge as the Vessels, then even when they were combined, they were still across two Vessels. (So Honor "didn't break the agreement" or what.)

• Does it matter? Maybe not, but let's say it gives us a way to rank the powers of different magic systems. So:
• Odium: seems to be "at" 9 somehow, maybe.* Or -1, also, or something. I suspect Aona and Skai were physically killed, like they were concentrated in a physical form when they were killed, since if they were in the Spiritual Realm more, why would Odium have had to push the Shards into the Cognitive to prevent them from being accessed? So, let's say per Shard he can -1 their power. So the Dor (e.g. as the extreme of Elantrian magic) is at an 8 or a 9. Likewise, Roshar's is at a 9 (only Honor is dead). Pre-Harmony, the Metallic Arts would have been each 5, except maybe Feruchemy would've been 10 (the ambivalence about it being the "really" end-neutral example, here). But under Harmony, though seemingly limited in some ways, it's probably at a straight 10.
• Endowment's system is probably straight 5.
• Threnody has no determinate system. Let's say it's just morbidly set to -1...
• Patji's system, for all we know, is at 0. Maybe all of Autonomy's offworld systems are at 0, as they don't count as from Shards in themselves. Taldain could just be at 5.
• *I have a quick idea: Autonomy didn't directly help Odium ever, but at some point in deep history, she did give him something that has helped him since, and she didn't make enough effort to figure out how terribly her decision could turn out. So let's say that Autonomy gave him something that sets him to 9, i.e. not something like a full other Shard, but maybe a massive pocket of some Investiture of hers she'd awoken...
• If this idea carries over, it's possible that Shards increase power in quanta of 5, if they take up another Shard. So the maximum would be 80? Or there's a geometrical increase, or who knows. Still, this doesn't explain why Scadrial's number is 16 (or the original number assigned to Adonalsium, or whatever...).

Interesting thought. Personally, I think that Roshar's fascination with the number 10 is far more of a cultural thing, which is heavily based in Vorinism. And we know that (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Preservation deliberately chose 16 for a lot of his world's systems so that the humans would notice. He probably chose 16 because of 16 shards, or just because he liked the number.

Your idea makes some sense as a classification of Shards' power, but I don't think that the number which you've assigned would necessarily be reflected in world. I might be missing something, but some of these numbers feel a little bit arbitrary. For example, why is Odium at 9? Did you just decide that? And why does he subtract 1 from their power? What does that mean? 

Otherwise, interesting Shard classification. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it.

[Elegy he/him]

45 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

Personally, I think that Roshar's fascination with the number 10 is far more of a cultural thing, which is heavily based in Vorinism.

It's actually both:

Quote

Questioner

In the cosmere, sixteen is obviously a very important number, or very significant, but on Roshar everything comes in groups of ten. Is that a cultural construction or is that really how things are being grouped on that planet?

Brandon Sanderson

It is both. It is a cultural construction that came from slight cosmere events that are not super, super, super important. Like, there's a reason we think in base ten, right? Is it important to the universe? Meh? Right... And it's maybe a little more on Roshar, but at the same time it's like**

Questioner

There are ten orders of Surgebinders. Did they order them that way? Or are there actually sixteen different--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it kind of goes back to there were ten [Heralds] with ten sets of power given by Honor, and Honor is an individual, right, so does that make sense? You cannot separate, in a lot of places in the cosmere, the perspectives of the sapient beings who are interfering with what's going on. Even going back to the number sixteen.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

That said, to respond to the original post, the numbers don't seem to be tied to the Shards necessarily, but the planets:

Quote

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

Although that's technically a RAFO, the last answer definitely points in a direction.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Elegy

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

It definitely seems like the planets have "magic numbers" and due to the fact that all investiture had to "flavor" itself to match one of the 16 shards, all the investiture currently not in Adonalsium or Yolen would be pockets of certain shards' power off on other planets. With that in mind, it seems reasonable to suggest that Roshar (or Greater Roshar) naturally had a lot of Honor/Cultivation's investiture already in use (e.g. the Spren, perhaps even the perpendicularities on Roshar aligned themselves that way), so Honor and Cultivation settled there to have a lot of their investiture at the ready to use as they saw fit.

Likewise, perhaps Nalthis had a lot of Endowment's investiture around, or Sel already had Dominion and Devotion's investiture.

Scadrial is an interesting exception as Preservation and Ruin created the whole planet themselves, thus its number and all the ambient investiture would be automatically attuned to their shards.

Braize being 9-centric instead of 10, when all of greater Roshar is 10-centric, and Braize is sort of Odium's shardworld, does seem to imply that Odium's powers do some sort of "shardic subtraction" to the world-number. if he went to Scadrial, would it become 15-centric? Would we lose an entire metal from the charts? I doubt it, at least for allomancy/feruchemy/hemalurgy. Those seem firmly rooted in 16 by the will of the shard on the planet. I suppose Odium's metallic art (side note: what a scary thought) and it's magical resonances (like feruchemy being a resonant system of Preservation and Ruin) would possibly be 15-centric instead, but who knows what that would mean.