Quantus he/him Posted July 25, 2019 Posted July 25, 2019 36 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said: But then you’ve designed a single school of magic without any limits. Soulcaster Radiants can make anything or everything? That sounds not Sanderson-like at all as he himself has stated that the limitations are what make magic system interesting. I wouldnt say it is limitless, it's just that it's limits are more quantitative than qualitative. Soulcasting as a magic can theoretically created any non-invested object the Soulcaster can imagine, but they need a)in "innate understanding and practice" so it's going to require a dedicated specialty, b) they need a single existing donor object to convince to change, which needs to be comparable size, and c) they need sufficient Stormlight to actually accomplish the change (whcih burns through Gems faster than almost any other use).
cometaryorbit Posted July 26, 2019 Posted July 26, 2019 13 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: The axi are the building blocks of their world, the smallest piece that soulcasting changes. It sounds like the soulcaster chooses a group of axi (which itself doesn't need to be elementally pure), then "instructs" each individual axi to turn into an essence (of which their is some flexibility). So basically what you make needs to be a big collection of small identical parts. Grain is no longer a plant with a complicated superstructure and differentiated parts, it's a processed material which you could reduce to a small replicable part (Starch+Cellulose for the most part). Similarly with wood. We've never seen someone soulcast a complete plant or other higher living thing though. Jasnah soulcasts viable blood for Shallan though... That involves cells, not just relatively simple organic molecules like starch/cellulose. I think that it is kind of the other way around. Soulcasting is a "Cognitive-first" system. The Soulcaster doesn't choose a group of Physical atoms/axi - they choose a Cognitively defined object* and persuade it with stormlight to become a different Cognitively defined object. Then the atoms/axi conform to whatever the changed Cognitive aspect tells them to become. So I don't think Physical complexity, in terms of atoms and molecules, is relevant. Some of the Essences are chemically complex, like grain and meat, others can be pure elements like metals. Also you run into questions like, do you use Metal or Blood ("all non-oil liquid") to Soulcast mercury? If it's below freezing outside, do you have to use Crystal instead of Blood to Soulcast water, or can you not do it at all? There are potential overlaps between the Ten Essences. I think the definition of what is what has to be Cognitive. *Which is probably why Jasnah tells Shallan in OB that air is harder to work with, as it's so amorphous. 11 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: But then you’ve designed a single school of magic without any limits. Soulcaster Radiants can make anything or everything? That sounds not Sanderson-like at all as he himself has stated that the limitations are what make magic system interesting. I don't think it's without limits, just that the limits are Cognitive in nature rather than Physical. It might be more comparable to AonDor, in the sense that the system as a whole can theoretically do an immense variety of things, but no individual user could ever learn to do more than a small fraction of those things. And Soulcasting is way more limited than AonDor - it's only ever going to turn one kind of matter into another kind of matter. (It is somewhat broader than the other Surges, but I think that is a relic of its being originally more of a separate magic system rather than just one of ten Surges... there are a couple of WOBs that talk about it that way.)
Pathfinder Posted July 29, 2019 Posted July 29, 2019 On 7/25/2019 at 1:03 PM, Subvisual Haze said: Brandon's magic systems have firm rules, that makes them more fun than "wizard waves hand, literally anything is possible". A logical restriction on Soulcasting (based on its similarities to alchemy/chemistry) is that what you make needs to be an essence, sort of like an element in modern chemistry but with flexibility related to how humans conceive of the world around them. The key idea of here is that it needs to be homogeneous (adj. "composed of parts or elements that are all of the same kind"). The thing you make is of the same substance in a very small amount as in a very large amount. When you soulcast a block of stone, the whole is elementally identical to each of the small parts that make it up. Jasnah even mentions these building blocks of the universe (roughly their equivalent of atoms) The axi are the building blocks of their world, the smallest piece that soulcasting changes. It sounds like the soulcaster chooses a group of axi (which itself doesn't need to be elementally pure), then "instructs" each individual axi to turn into an essence (of which their is some flexibility). So basically what you make needs to be a big collection of small identical parts. Grain is no longer a plant with a complicated superstructure and differentiated parts, it's a processed material which you could reduce to a small replicable part (Starch+Cellulose for the most part). Similarly with wood. We've never seen someone soulcast a complete plant or other higher living thing though. Full plants are complicated things with differentiated unique parts, and if it were possible to make an approximate of such a thing if would likely involve multiple essences and multiple soulcastings. Same deal with a mushroom. Mushrooms have parts. Maybe you could choose a particular part of a mushroom like the stem and form a building block from it, but that wouldn't exactly be a mushroom anymore at that point, it's a building block of a mushroom mass replicated. But my point, (as @Quantus eloquently puts) is why is mushrooms in particular, out of all the things on Roshar, so much more complicated than anything else a soulcaster can make? Shallan says you can soulcast mineral deposits into rock to then be mined. Jasnah, had she been better with organics, could have soulcasted the jam, removing the poison. That means she had to soulcast a complicated foodstuff, which was produced, not natural (puree of various fruits, sugar, pectin, boiled, skimmed, then boiled water around it) and completely transform it into itself all over again, to remove the poison which permeated the jam. The poison wasn't just a film at the top that she skimmed away via soulcasting. It was mixed in so any bite would be lethal. So that means remaking the entire thing. Just because Jasnah is not as skilled at organics, does not mean it isn't possible. Then lets look at what happened with Shallan. As mentioned further down by @cometaryorbit, Jasnah soulcasts the blood in Shallan's body to get rid of the poison. So now you are having to focus on an extremely intricate and extensive system to soulcast it all to blood, to remove the poison, all without killing Shallan. For me, if a soulcaster can do all of that, and we also know for a fact via WoB, that you could make plutonium, the only limiter being knowledge and understanding, then I would imagine mushrooms would certainly be capable of being soulcasted. On 7/25/2019 at 2:45 PM, Quantus said: I would argue that fungus is at least as homogeneous as wood (both on visual inspection and microscopically), and we know they soulcast things into wood. Beyond that, I don't think to be homogeneous, it's just that "Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice", and what's more it specifically takes a Radiant rather than a Fabrial (which are significantly less flexible). There's also This WOB that says it's not just a matter of the Soulcaster having the knowledge, they would in turn need to get the Spren to understand it. All that to say that the WOB's imply it's a limit of understanding and/or education rather than any actual limitation of the Magic System itself. The Essences are just the default substances that are easiest to accomplish. I agree on every point. On 7/25/2019 at 2:59 PM, Subvisual Haze said: But then you’ve designed a single school of magic without any limits. Soulcaster Radiants can make anything or everything? That sounds not Sanderson-like at all as he himself has stated that the limitations are what make magic system interesting. It is still a system of magic that takes skill and training to use. Jasnah is extremely proficient in the art, and we hear her wax on to Shallan about the tricks she learned to better employ it. That doesn't speak to me of a system without limits. But also take into account as per WoB, Stormlight is written with the intention of it being a highly invested planet, and the resulting effects of that. On 7/25/2019 at 3:40 PM, Quantus said: I wouldnt say it is limitless, it's just that it's limits are more quantitative than qualitative. Soulcasting as a magic can theoretically created any non-invested object the Soulcaster can imagine, but they need a)in "innate understanding and practice" so it's going to require a dedicated specialty, they need a single existing donor object to convince to change, which needs to be comparable size, and c) they need sufficient Stormlight to actually accomplish the change (whcih burns through Gems faster than almost any other use). Only point of clarity, is there is a WoB that, to me, strongly implies that Radiant Soulcasters do not require specific gemstones to soulcast. The fabrials are the ones with that limitation. As we discuss this, I find it interesting that @subvisualhaze sees changing an object's composition, or creating something is being seen as a magic without limits, but we have radiants that can burn anything, change the direction and force of gravity on anything, can heal almost any wound no matter how grievous the injury is so long as the brain is not dead, turn paper into as strong as steel to use as a shield, turn solid rock into putty, and completely remove friction from anything. Personally I think all of those are in the same league of soulcasting, and none of the above is without limit. On 7/26/2019 at 2:36 AM, cometaryorbit said: Jasnah soulcasts viable blood for Shallan though... That involves cells, not just relatively simple organic molecules like starch/cellulose. I think that it is kind of the other way around. Soulcasting is a "Cognitive-first" system. The Soulcaster doesn't choose a group of Physical atoms/axi - they choose a Cognitively defined object* and persuade it with stormlight to become a different Cognitively defined object. Then the atoms/axi conform to whatever the changed Cognitive aspect tells them to become. So I don't think Physical complexity, in terms of atoms and molecules, is relevant. Some of the Essences are chemically complex, like grain and meat, others can be pure elements like metals. Also you run into questions like, do you use Metal or Blood ("all non-oil liquid") to Soulcast mercury? If it's below freezing outside, do you have to use Crystal instead of Blood to Soulcast water, or can you not do it at all? There are potential overlaps between the Ten Essences. I think the definition of what is what has to be Cognitive. *Which is probably why Jasnah tells Shallan in OB that air is harder to work with, as it's so amorphous. I don't think it's without limits, just that the limits are Cognitive in nature rather than Physical. It might be more comparable to AonDor, in the sense that the system as a whole can theoretically do an immense variety of things, but no individual user could ever learn to do more than a small fraction of those things. And Soulcasting is way more limited than AonDor - it's only ever going to turn one kind of matter into another kind of matter. (It is somewhat broader than the other Surges, but I think that is a relic of its being originally more of a separate magic system rather than just one of ten Surges... there are a couple of WOBs that talk about it that way.) Interesting points regarding soulcasting Ice, and what essences are associated. 1
Quantus he/him Posted July 29, 2019 Posted July 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Only point of clarity, is there is a WoB that, to me, strongly implies that Radiant Soulcasters do not require specific gemstones to soulcast. The fabrials are the ones with that limitation. As we discuss this, I find it interesting that @subvisualhaze sees changing an object's composition, or creating something is being seen as a magic without limits, but we have radiants that can burn anything, change the direction and force of gravity on anything, can heal almost any wound no matter how grievous the injury is so long as the brain is not dead, turn paper into as strong as steel to use as a shield, turn solid rock into putty, and completely remove friction from anything. Personally I think all of those are in the same league of soulcasting, and none of the above is without limit. I agree, I dont think Radiant Soulcasters need gems for any particular piece of their Soulcasting. Like any other Surge I figure they just need to have a sufficient store of Stormlight available, let alone needing specific gems like the fabrials. But the following WOB seems to imply the opposite: Quote StormAtlas (paraphrased) Why can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding. It's more a quirk of Soulcasting than it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though; Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't. Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013) I find it interesting to note that in the original drafts, Brandon had Soulcasting set to be a power all Radiant's shared, like the healing. Quote Brandon Sanderson In fact, in the origin of The Stormlight Archive, the first Surgebinding things I did, every order of the Knights Radiant was going to be able to Soulcast. Be able to change things from one to another. It was just, you would be locked into the element that was associated with your order of Knight Radiant, you could turn that into anything else you wanted to. That was one of my original pitches. I eventually moved away from that, a lot of the Orders were just feeling too similar in what they did, but that core concept is still there in Stormlight, and Soulcasting as a concept is there because the series is about change. Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)
Pathfinder Posted July 29, 2019 Posted July 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Quantus said: I agree, I dont think Radiant Soulcasters need gems for any particular piece of their Soulcasting. Like any other Surge I figure they just need to have a sufficient store of Stormlight available, let alone needing specific gems like the fabrials. But the following WOB seems to imply the opposite: I find it interesting to note that in the original drafts, Brandon had Soulcasting set to be a power all Radiant's shared, like the healing. I was referring to these WoB, which are more recent: Coltonx9 Why do the gems in Jasnah's Soulcaster break when she is using her own ability in the first book? Brandon Sanderson Jasnah is very good at fooling people. Footnote: This may be a mistake. Shallan has also caused gems to crack when Soulcasting in Words of Radiance chapter 7.Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018) The Forumlurker (paraphrased) If a Radiant tried to Soulcast directly with the Stormlight from the Highstorm, what essences could they create? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They could basically do whatever they want. There wouldn't be any limitations, but only for Radiant Soulcasters. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Darkness (paraphrased) Further on in that… do different gemstones hold a different flavor, or different "frequency" of Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Umm…. Nnnnnnnnooooooo… But kind of? Here's the thing: So with the gemstones on Roshar… scientifically some of these gemstones are just really close to one another. Like chemical formula and whatever. But, their cognitive selves and their spiritual selves are gonna be very different because of human perception, right? (sure) And so, the answer is both a no and a yes because of that. So people's perception has sort of changed how the magic works, to an extent… but it's the same amount of investiture, just with slightly different flavorings. Darkness (paraphrased) Right, so… is it easier for a Soulcaster to turn rock into smoke with a smokestone as opposed to a ruby? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) So… Soulcasting… is gonna really depend on whether you're using a soulcaster. Darkness (paraphrased) First is for a Soulcaster, second is for a Surgebinder. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) A Surgebinder is far less constrained than someone using a device accessing surges, right? A Knight Radiant is far less constrained than somebody using a mechanical means of accessing magic, and I would include Honorblades as a mechanical means of accessing a surge. Darkness (paraphrased) Cool! So with the whole Jasnah scene, she inhales Stormlight, for using Soulcasting. So how is it the Soulcaster appears to glow more fiercely instead of growing dimmer in that scene? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Um… heh heh heh… So… this is perception on Shallan's part, watching and kind of resonating with the Soulcasting, and some weird things are happening that she sees, and not necessarily anyone else is seeing. Darkness (paraphrased) I love that! Alright… Also, did Taravangian recognize that Jasnah was not Soulcasting traditionally? Like was it the hand sinking into the rock that gave it away? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Taravangian knew and already suspected. Supanova 2017 - Sydney (June 16, 2017) and finally a WoB regarding soulcasting materials that may be pertinent to the point of the original thread. GreenRover Can you Soulcast things into plastic? Like, from the oil Essence? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, you could. You could Soulcast things to plastic. You'd need to work with the magic, but you could. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) 1
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