Could the Radiants have wanted to kill their order?

[Renen]

Having been reading the following thread, and was hoping to start up some more discussion. 

One possible way to look at it would be that the Radiants and their spren (likely without telling any of the other spren, or at most telling only some top tier elite) decided that the order or radiants must stop existing. When ivory mentions that the skybreakers chose to live in death, its possible he is talking about them choosing to go along with the plan without breaking their oaths, making them just hide and do such a good job, no one even remembers that one order sorta skipped dying. 

 

The rest (a long with their spren) seems to have decided that the absolute best way to make sure there are no more radiants like at all, was to make the humans out to be spren murdering monsters. Also monsters that betrayed humanity. Now 99% of spren want nothing to do with humans, and even the 1% like Syl are being forcibly held back. And humans now hate the Radiants wanting nothing to do with anything even remotely related to them, let alone wanting to become them. 

One possibility I'm thinking of is that maybe the sons of honour (and Nale) are into something, and more radiants does have the voidbringers return. Maybe that was the trigger strong enough to make them all agree to do something this bad? Or maybe some benefit to suddenly dropping the radiant population into (at best) low double digits?

[RShara]

47 minutes ago, Renen said:

One possible way to look at it would be that the Radiants and their spren (likely without telling any of the other spren, or at most telling only some top tier elite) decided that the order or radiants must stop existing.

Yup, that was part of the reasoning in my theory. The Radiants decided that they were a danger to the world. The spren agreed. And they both came up with the plan to end spren wanting to bond with humans by having the spren die in a horrifying and traumatic/dramatic way.

Here is the thread here on the Shard

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by RShara

[Pathfinder]

Totally respect both your theories, just saying why it doesn't feel right to me. Brandon has said there is a function in place that if both radiant and spren agree, they can end the bond without the spren being "killed" so if both radiant and spren both wanted to end the bond to prevent being a danger, they could have without killing the spren yet according to the Recreance they did. Kaladin had been breaking his bond with Syl for days, and could still use his powers. Even when she was a confused gibbering mess he could force the bond to surgebind. So I think that is how the radiants showed up still surgebinding, before then killing their spren. Finally the issue I keep coming back to, is the other young spren that were not bonded apparently were kept out of the loop then because they don't know that reason. For the same point of how could the radiant knights spren not know they were planning to kill them, how could all the other spren not know that their compatriots were planning to sacrifice themselves? But I wish you both luck with your theories! it just doesn't fit for me. 

[Renen]

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 how could all the other spren not know that their compatriots were planning to sacrifice themselves?

Since it's mentioned that spren society is somewhat similar to human one (they have leaders, they have general labourers etc) it's possible that the spren of the Radiants either didn't tell anyone or only told the spren equivalent of kings. 

As for why they wanted to break the bond this way, it's possible they did it specifically as a grand gesture (like some people who self immolate to send a message). They wanted to make it a big event that will horrify the other spren, and they wanted the shards to be left on Roshar for general use so other spren see humans swinging around the corpses of their own kind and be that much more hesitant to bond. 

Basically I think it could have been a mass suicide to send a message. And the message being "No more radiants" 

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Renen said:

Since it's mentioned that spren society is somewhat similar to human one (they have leaders, they have general labourers etc) it's possible that the spren of the Radiants either didn't tell anyone or only told the spren equivalent of kings. 

As for why they wanted to break the bond this way, it's possible they did it specifically as a grand gesture (like some people who self immolate to send a message). They wanted to make it a big event that will horrify the other spren, and they wanted the shards to be left on Roshar for general use so other spren see humans swinging around the corpses of their own kind and be that much more hesitant to bond. 

Basically I think it could have been a mass suicide to send a message. And the message being "No more radiants" 

And like human society, keeping absolute secrecy on something so large is almost impossible. Someone would find out, and given the immortal nature of the spren, that information would get around in the years after the recreance. Conversely even if the spren found out the radiant's were about to kill them, the spren couldn't flee because as per Brandon, breaking the oaths without killing the spren requires both sides to agree. 

Maybe? Totally get the idea works for you. Just doesn't feel right to me. I feel they could have accomplished the same thing by mutually ending the bond. They would theoretically be more successful in my mind with stopping further bonding because the spren could keep an eye on other spren and the humans an eye on the humans. If a budding radiant is discovered, have people show up with larkin to drain stormlight, and then forcibly break the bond early like how the honorspren on the boat says they can do, keeping both alive. 

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Renen]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And like human society, keeping absolute secrecy on something so large is almost impossible. Someone would find out, and given the immortal nature of the spren, that information would get around in the years after the recreance. Conversely even if the spren found out the radiant's were about to kill them, the spren couldn't flee because as per Brandon, breaking the oaths without killing the spren requires both sides to agree. 

Maybe? Totally get the idea works for you. Just doesn't feel right to me. I feel they could have accomplished the same thing by mutually ending the bond. They would theoretically be more successful in my mind with stopping further bonding because the spren could keep an eye on other spren and the humans an eye on the humans. If a budding radiant is discovered, have people show up with larkin to drain stormlight, and then forcibly break the bond early like how the honorspren on the boat says they can do, keeping both alive. 

 

I think there are two main ways it could have happened:

1) The radiant spren were in on it

2) They weren't in on it

 

But if they weren't in on it, it would imply that the Radiants were able to coordinate murdering all their spren (in some cases hundreds of radiants at once) without their spren raising the alarm. I think it'd be impossible to make such plans when you have invisible nosy fairies all around you. 

And there's also the fact that all radiants agreed. So either there was 0 discussion and everyone was instantly on board with murdering their BFF and not saying a single word to anyone, or they have already talked about this with their spren and got everyone on board eventually. 

 

I imagine when dealing with spren and being this hung up on oaths, there were ways to say "Hey let's have this secret conversation, but you have to promise not to say anything to anyone" 

[Mage of Lirigon]

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And like human society, keeping absolute secrecy on something so large is almost impossible. Someone would find out, and given the immortal nature of the spren, that information would get around in the years after the recreance.[/quote]

I'm not so sure about this one. It's not as if they have modern information networks  and spren have been shown to be able to keep information abnormally secret because of reasons before (i.e. stuff with the Oaths). I don't find it implausible that only the small subset of spren bonded with Radiants would be able to maintain secrecy on this issue.

 

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Maybe? Totally get the idea works for you. Just doesn't feel right to me. I feel they could have accomplished the same thing by mutually ending the bond. They would theoretically be more successful in my mind with stopping further bonding because the spren could keep an eye on other spren and the humans an eye on the humans. If a budding radiant is discovered, have people show up with larkin to drain stormlight, and then forcibly break the bond early like how the honorspren on the boat says they can do, keeping both alive. 

Humans literally forgot all about this for the most part so they wouldn't be able to monitor themselves on a wide scale. And without a super traumatic event like the Recreance, you would undoubtedly have more spren trying to bond humans just because, no matter what former Radiant spren.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

And like human society, keeping absolute secrecy on something so large is almost impossible. Someone would find out, and given the immortal nature of the spren, that information would get around in the years after the recreance. Conversely even if the spren found out the radiant's were about to kill them, the spren couldn't flee because as per Brandon, breaking the oaths without killing the spren requires both sides to agree. 

Maybe? Totally get the idea works for you. Just doesn't feel right to me. I feel they could have accomplished the same thing by mutually ending the bond. They would theoretically be more successful in my mind with stopping further bonding because the spren could keep an eye on other spren and the humans an eye on the humans. If a budding radiant is discovered, have people show up with larkin to drain stormlight, and then forcibly break the bond early like how the honorspren on the boat says they can do, keeping both alive. 

 

But in my theory, I explain this The spren had to die, in order to horrify all the other spren into being too angry and too filled with hatred of humans to want to bond again. Just telling them would not have served nearly the same purpose.

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They deliberately allowed their Knights to break their Oaths, knowing that it would kill them, and alienate the remaining spren, so that no spren would be willing to seek out a bond for the foreseeable future. 

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7.  The spren didn't leave or choose to have their Oath broken.  Notum mentions there are "other ways" than killing the Knight, at least until the 5th Oath is sworn.  Bui;ding on 6, if the spren didn't agree with their Knights, shouldn't some of them have tried to break their bond?  It doesn't appear as if any of them did.

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“Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.”

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9. The spren didn't break their Oaths on their own (controversial).  I believe that the spren can break the bond to their humans on their own.  That they didn't also implies that they were complicit in the Recreance.

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by RShara

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Renen said:

I think there are two main ways it could have happened:

1) The radiant spren were in on it

2) They weren't in on it

 

But if they weren't in on it, it would imply that the Radiants were able to coordinate murdering all their spren (in some cases hundreds of radiants at once) without their spren raising the alarm. I think it'd be impossible to make such plans when you have invisible nosy fairies all around you. 

And there's also the fact that all radiants agreed. So either there was 0 discussion and everyone was instantly on board with murdering their BFF and not saying a single word to anyone, or they have already talked about this with their spren and got everyone on board eventually. 

 

I imagine when dealing with spren and being this hung up on oaths, there were ways to say "Hey let's have this secret conversation, but you have to promise not to say anything to anyone" 

I think the spren realized what the radiants were going to do, but couldn't stop it. From what I understand, holding to the oaths requires the radiants deep down to believe it is true. For instance Kaladin could kill parshendi before no problem because they were "other". he was protecting his people from "the enemy". Once the enemy because his people too, he had trouble acting within the oaths. That is where the whole Elhokar Moash thing came in. He made an oath to Dalinar. Deep down he felt he was betraying that oath to protect elhokar by helping Moash. Had Kaladin himself not seen anything wrong deep down with elhokar being killed as a means to protect Dalinar and others, then I do not believe the bond would have been broken. So the spren would have remained bonded to the radiants regardless whether or not they liked the idea of the radiants killing them all the way up to the radiant ending the bond by killing the spren. At least that is how I interpret it. 

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I'm not so sure about this one. It's not as if they have modern information networks  and spren have been shown to be able to keep information abnormally secret because of reasons before (i.e. stuff with the Oaths). I don't find it implausible that only the small subset of spren bonded with Radiants would be able to maintain secrecy on this issue.

 

Humans literally forgot all about this for the most part so they wouldn't be able to monitor themselves on a wide scale. And without a super traumatic event like the Recreance, you would undoubtedly have more spren trying to bond humans just because, no matter what former Radiant spren.

But that is my point. I do not agree with the why that the spren would keep it secret. To me it wouldn't make sense when to me they could accomplish that goal far better by mutually ending the bond and enforcing a policy of non bonding. The spren to me wouldn't need to kill themselves to accomplish that. 

1 minute ago, RShara said:

But in my theory, I explain this

 

I respect your theory, but I didn't read anything there that answers any of my issues. Btw this is the WoB I am referring to regarding needing both sides to agree to breaking the bond for the spren to survive the experience

 

Overlord Jebus

Can a spren willingly break their bond anytime between the First and Fifth Oath, with their Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible--

Overlord Jebus

Essentially committing suicide isn't it though--

Brandon Sanderson

I just ascribe to that question-- A spren could at any point break it. Can they break it safely? That's a different question.

Overlord Jebus

Can they break it safely? *laughs*

Brandon Sanderson

There are methods in place where it can be stopped. So yes it can be done. But once you've started into this, once you've chosen on both sides, it's a dangerous process. But yes it can be done, and it can be done safely.

[RShara]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think the spren realized what the radiants were going to do, but couldn't stop it. From what I understand, holding to the oaths requires the radiants deep down to believe it is true. For instance Kaladin could kill parshendi before no problem because they were "other". he was protecting his people from "the enemy". Once the enemy because his people too, he had trouble acting within the oaths. That is where the whole Elhokar Moash thing came in. He made an oath to Dalinar. Deep down he felt he was betraying that oath to protect elhokar by helping Moash. Had Kaladin himself not seen anything wrong deep down with elhokar being killed as a means to protect Dalinar and others, then I do not believe the bond would have been broken. So the spren would have remained bonded to the radiants regardless whether or not they liked the idea of the radiants killing them all the way up to the radiant ending the bond by killing the spren. At least that is how I interpret it. 

But that is my point. I do not agree with the why that the spren would keep it secret. To me it wouldn't make sense when to me they could accomplish that goal far better by mutually ending the bond and enforcing a policy of non bonding. The spren to me wouldn't need to kill themselves to accomplish that. 

I respect your theory, but I didn't read anything there that answers any of my issues. Btw this is the WoB I am referring to regarding needing both sides to agree to breaking the bond for the spren to survive the experience

 

Overlord Jebus

Can a spren willingly break their bond anytime between the First and Fifth Oath, with their Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible--

Overlord Jebus

Essentially committing suicide isn't it though--

Brandon Sanderson

I just ascribe to that question-- A spren could at any point break it. Can they break it safely? That's a different question.

Overlord Jebus

Can they break it safely? *laughs*

Brandon Sanderson

There are methods in place where it can be stopped. So yes it can be done. But once you've started into this, once you've chosen on both sides, it's a dangerous process. But yes it can be done, and it can be done safely.

Yes, that's the WoB I got Jebus to ask for me in order to prove point 9 of my theory. What's more likely to work, being told, "No you shouldn't bond because it might destroy the world." or "Humans killed our friends and family, they can't be trusted, we're never bonding again!"

The very fact that they *didn't* just walk away, since they *could* have, is a big chunk of proof that they did agree and were in on the whole thing.

I cover this on page 5, when Jebus got me that WoB

Edit: Oh, I think we're reading the WoB differently. To me, Brandon is saying the spren can break the bond at any time, though it could be dangerous to do so. Not that both the spren and the Radiant need to agree to break it. "Once you've chosen on both sides to create the bond, breaking it is dangerous." "Yes, the spren can break it if it wants to, safely."

Edited June 10, 2019 by RShara

[Mage of Lirigon]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But that is my point. I do not agree with the why that the spren would keep it secret. To me it wouldn't make sense when to me they could accomplish that goal far better by mutually ending the bond and enforcing a policy of non bonding. The spren to me wouldn't need to kill themselves to accomplish that. 

The problem is enforcing non-bonding is near impossible, especially from the spren side. It's like Prohibition, the more spren are told not to bond by their leaders, the more they will want to bond with humans. They would probably continue even if they knew there was a chance it could destroy the world.

That is exactly why the spren needed a grim reminder.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

 

Edit: Oh, I think we're reading the WoB differently. To me, Brandon is saying the spren can break the bond at any time, though it could be dangerous to do so. Not that both the spren and the Radiant need to agree to break it.

yep, i think that is the crux of it, which is why I just want to stress I totally get where you all are coming from and I wish you luck with your theory. I just interpret some things differently, so it doesn't fit for myself. But I totally acknowledge how it could fit for you guys. To me that WoB is saying both parties need to agree, so the spren couldn't have stopped the radiants from killing them even if they learned what was planned. 

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

The problem is enforcing non-bonding is near impossible, especially from the spren side. It's like Prohibition, the more spren are told not to bond by their leaders, the more they will want to bond with humans. They would probably continue even if they knew there was a chance it could destroy the world.

That is exactly why the spren needed a grim reminder.

And this is another situation, like the one I just wrote with Rshara, where it comes more down to differing interpretation than anything. For myself, I would see it to be more likely that having a force present and actively working to prevent something (a force that is known, not secret like the skybreakers) on both sides (human and spren) would be more effective in preventing bonding, than suicide and hoping everyone gets the right message. Clearly spark didn't get the right memo. Spark wants revenge and bonded. When if your theory is true, the point was the humans aren't bad, nor are the spren, just the bonding of the two and using the powers. 

[Mage of Lirigon]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And this is another situation, like the one I just wrote with Rshara, where it comes more down to differing interpretation than anything. For myself, I would see it to be more likely that having a force present and actively working to prevent something (a force that is known, not secret like the skybreakers) on both sides (human and spren) would be more effective in preventing bonding, than suicide and hoping everyone gets the right message. Clearly spark didn't get the right memo. Spark wants revenge and bonded. When if your theory is true, the point was the humans aren't bad, nor are the spren, just the bonding of the two and using the powers. 

*shrugs*

I think history has proved that really doesn't work. The more people are forbidden something, the more they'll want it. The fact that such a force would be public would only increase the likelihood of bonds happening, only this time it would be mostly criminals bonding instead. 

[Renen]

I think now that spren are coming back, Spark was like "storm this, I'll risk bonding and dying if it helps me get back at those evil humans". Because he's an ashspren, it seems reasonable that destruction in the name of revenge would make it worth potentially dying. Just like pattern takes the risk for the knowledge. 

 

To the point about the spren not being able to stop their radiants, while that may be true, I have a few issues with that line of thought (though I may be wrong):

1) They still would have told other spren. There's no way the Radiants planned the recreance in such a way that their spren knew, disagreed, but weren't able to tell anyone. 

2) The synchronized breaking of oaths we see in the vision is is strange. Did they really have several hundred radiants simply break their oaths at the same time? Each one would have had individual oaths, each one would have had to storm up that bond in a somewhat unique way, all in the span of a few seconds. Perhaps they came up with some more universal "rip out the nahel bond" trick rather than breaking oaths? 

[Pathfinder]

56 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

*shrugs*

I think history has proved that really doesn't work. The more people are forbidden something, the more they'll want it. The fact that such a force would be public would only increase the likelihood of bonds happening, only this time it would be mostly criminals bonding instead. 

Personally I disagree. Existence of criminals does not mean laws do not work, and also does not mean the law's existence is pointless. But in this, to each their own

29 minutes ago, Renen said:

I think now that spren are coming back, Spark was like "storm this, I'll risk bonding and dying if it helps me get back at those evil humans". Because he's an ashspren, it seems reasonable that destruction in the name of revenge would make it worth potentially dying. Just like pattern takes the risk for the knowledge. 

Personally I do not think we know enough about ash spren to say. Cyptics have bonded two artists we know of, yet they focus on mathematics and patterns. Now there is a beauty and art to numbers depending on how the person views it, but that would not be the first thing I would have expected of the crypics when hearing of their order. Elsecallers seem scholarly, yet most of the times we have seen Ivory, he takes the form of a soldier with a sword. 

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To the point about the spren not being able to stop their radiants, while that may be true, I have a few issues with that line of thought (though I may be wrong):

1) They still would have told other spren. There's no way the Radiants planned the recreance in such a way that their spren knew, disagreed, but weren't able to tell anyone.

 

And for me, yes they did tell the other spren or at least it got out. It's why the other spren hate humans. The humans killed the spren because they couldn't handle their powers. The Stormfather confirms it. I think there is more going on than that to drive the humans to kill the spren, but I think it is part of it. Enough information got out that part of the reason became known as the main reason. This is all theoretical on my part and I do not wish to digress your thread. I apologize if I have done so

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2) The synchronized breaking of oaths we see in the vision is is strange. Did they really have several hundred radiants simply break their oaths at the same time? Each one would have had individual oaths, each one would have had to storm up that bond in a somewhat unique way, all in the span of a few seconds. Perhaps they came up with some more universal "rip out the nahel bond" trick rather than breaking oaths? 

Brandon confirmed that you can break the bond (killing the spren) from breaking the first oath. That is how a lightweaver could do it. Will update with the WoB, give me like 5 minutes. 

 

Questioner

Kaladin kind of went back on his Oaths in the second book, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He started down that path.

Questioner

How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the Truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the Cryptics-- remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you're not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it'd be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you're gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let's say.

Questioner

So then, what happened with the Lightweavers during the Recreance? Did they break their Oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

They did break their Oaths. I mean, breaking your Oaths as in "walking away from the first Oath" will still do it, regardless of what Order you are. You can actively say, "I am breaking my Oaths and walking away." Anyone has that option. But you also are holding the life of a spren in your hand.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Personally I disagree. Existence of criminals does not mean laws do not work, and also does not mean the law's existence is pointless. But in this, to each their ownBrandon confirmed that you can break the bond (killing the spren) from breaking the first oath. That is how a lightweaver could do it. Will update with the WoB, give me like 5 minutes. 

I never said it was. I merely said that simply making bonding illegal wouldn't stop it.

 

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And for me, yes they did tell the other spren or at least it got out. It's why the other spren hate humans. The humans killed the spren because they couldn't handle their powers. The Stormfather confirms it. I think there is more going on than that to drive the humans to kill the spren, but I think it is part of it. Enough information got out that part of the reason became known as the main reason. This is all theoretical on my part and I do not wish to digress your thread. I apologize if I have done so

 

I don't think we've heard that the spren knows the whole story behind the Recreance.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I never said it was. I merely said that simply making bonding illegal wouldn't stop it.

I never said it wouldn't stop it. I said it would be better enforced. If you check a prior post of mine in this thread I mentioned ways they could enforce it, which would be more plausible to me than a mass suicide to try and convey a message that as I mentioned with Spark, was apparently misunderstood, as Spark did the very thing the message would have been aiming to prevent. 

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I don't think we've heard that the spren knows the whole story behind the Recreance.

Never said we do. My post said that the powers being the problem was part of it, and because some information leaked, it wouldn't entirely be accurate, and end up causing the other spren to think it was the primary reason. The stormfather certainly thinks it is the main reason. What I am saying is yes information leaks, but it doesn't make that leaked information entirely accurate. Did that hopefully clarify things?

 

edit: this is towards @Renen

Just re-read your original post, and recalled a WoB regarding Ivory saying the Skybreakers live in death. Posted below:

 

Blightsong

What did Ivory mean by the Skybreakers living in death? 

Brandon Sanderson

Ivory likes contradictions, they fascinate him. And he is saying that they live in death in that they kill a lot. It's a philosophical sort of thing. He's making an Ivory observation, it's not something you're supposed to take as a pronouncement of nature or reality. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I never said it wouldn't stop it. I said it would be better enforced. If you check a prior post of mine in this thread I mentioned ways they could enforce it, which would be more plausible to me than a mass suicide to try and convey a message that as I mentioned with Spark, was apparently misunderstood, as Spark did the very thing the message would have been aiming to prevent. 

The goal should be to stop new bonds from happening. No matter how well you try to regulate it, you'd still have a large group of spren bonding all the time, which defeats the point.

There'll always be weirdos like Spark around, but because the Recreance created such as strong anti-bonding message, the numbers are low enough that with the Skybreakers running interference, spren bonding was basically unheard of for centuries, to the point where human beings forgot about it entirely. That's actually pretty impressive.

 

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Never said we do. My post said that the powers being the problem was part of it, and because some information leaked, it wouldn't entirely be accurate, and end up causing the other spren to think it was the primary reason. The stormfather certainly thinks it is the main reason. What I am saying is yes information leaks, but it doesn't make that leaked information entirely accurate. Did that hopefully clarify things?

We still don't know that ordinary spren know that it had anything to do with powers. People like Eco seem to think it happened just because humans are essentially treacherous.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

The goal should be to stop new bonds from happening. No matter how well you try to regulate it, you'd still have a large group of spren bonding all the time, which defeats the point.

There'll always be weirdos like Spark around, but because the Recreance created such as strong anti-bonding message, the numbers are low enough that with the Skybreakers running interference, spren bonding was basically unheard of for centuries, to the point where human beings forgot about it entirely. That's actually pretty impressive.

Is the entire "Circle" a bunch of weirdos? Because they as a group decided for Wyndle to bond Lift. Are all the Cryptics a bunch of weirdos? Because they decided as a group to bond multiple radiants despite the message of the spren suicide. Despite the skybreakers "running interference" behind the scenes as a secret organization, bonds were successfully formed, which you are saying the suicide is required to prevent, but an open organization of both humans and spren cannot possibly mitigate. Guess this is down to agreeing to disagree. 

 

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We still don't know that ordinary spren know that it had anything to do with powers. People like Eco seem to think it happened just because humans are essentially treacherous.

Still don't see how this is disagreeing or disputing anything I said. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Is the entire "Circle" a bunch of weirdos? Because they as a group decided for Wyndle to bond Lift. Are all the Cryptics a bunch of weirdos? Because they decided as a group to bond multiple radiants despite the message of the spren suicide.

The Circle and the cryptics only allowed those bonds to take place as a counter to Odium. It certainly wasn't normal behaviour for them.

 

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Despite the skybreakers "running interference" behind the scenes as a secret organization, bonds were successfully formed, which you are saying the suicide is required to prevent, but an open organization of both humans and spren cannot possibly mitigate. Guess this is down to agreeing to disagree. 

I said that bonds would always occur, but because of the Recreance the number went down a whole lot to the point where the Skybreakers could murder pretty much all of them until recently. Without the Recreance, there would be way more spren willing to bond humans, and even with both sides trying to enforce the rules, you would still have tons of new bonds happening,

 

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Still don't see how this is disagreeing or disputing anything I said. 

?

Weren't you saying that the reason most spren don't trust humans is because of garbled info they got about how Surgebinding was bad?

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

The Circle and the cryptics only allowed those bonds to take place as a counter to Odium. It certainly wasn't normal behaviour for them.

But I thought the point of the suicide was to send all spren the message to never bond? Why are those organizations exempt? They would have received the same message if the spren committed suicide, otherwise their sacrifice would have been pointless. 

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I said that bonds would always occur, but because of the Recreance the number went down a whole lot to the point where the Skybreakers could murder pretty much all of them until recently. Without the Recreance, there would be way more spren willing to bond humans, and even with both sides trying to enforce the rules, you would still have tons of new bonds happening,

Maybe this would help. The process I believe everyone is advocating is this:

   1. radiants and spren realize their powers unchecked blow up planets. must stop spren and humans from bonding ever again

   2. radiants and bonded spren secretly agree to kill the spren to be so horrific so as to scare all spren off from ever bonding again

   3. recreance happens

For me, assuming your theory is the case, this could have been accomplished easier and more effectively by taking place this way

  1. radiants and spren realize their powers unchecked blow up planets. must stop spren and humans from bonding ever again

  2. radiants and bonded spren mutually break the bonds, resulting in bonded spren surviving the break

  3. former radiants, and former bonded spren agree to each watch and enforce the ban on bonding on each their respective people's

  4. Any time a budding surgebinder starts to happen, either side would notice and coordinate with the other side. use of fabrials or larkens would nullify new radiant, and then enforce the ban. 

 

So my point is, if the theory is saying the suicide pact was to scare any spren from bonding ever again, then the pact failed. The sacrifice failed to inspire such fear because spren continued to bond despite it to the point where skybreakers had to run around killing any radiants that popped up, and even that still failed because whole organizations still popped up, that still believed in bonding, despite this horrific and grim message of spren death. That it would have been easier and more effective to me, for the spren and humans to voluntarily break the bond, and actively enforce a ban than kill themselves and hope the message accomplishes their goal. 

Now that is my response to the theory. My own theory is different.

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?

Weren't you saying that the reason most spren don't trust humans is because of garbled info they got about how Surgebinding was bad?

I am saying that the reason for the recreance includes the power blowy up planets issue as well as other reasons we do not know because what little that did leak from the spren as they were killed by their radiants got muddled and confused. So surgebinding is bad is part of the reason but not the sole reason. The spren could not flee/break the bond without dying. The radiants as long as they believed in what they were doing, would not have broken the oath till they chose to turn their back on the first oath, which per WoB, they can do exactly that. So that to me is why the windrunners could fly in still fully powered, and then just break/kill the spren in one go. But as I said, that is my own interpretation of the information we have. Totally respect other people interpret or rationalize in a different way than me

 

edit: basically for you the suicide idea makes more sense. for me it does not. that's all. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But I thought the point of the suicide was to send all spren the message to never bond? Why are those organizations exempt? They would have received the same message if the spren committed suicide, otherwise their sacrifice would have been pointless. 

They decided to bond because they were frightened to death of Odium.

 

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For me, assuming your theory is the case, this could have been accomplished easier and more effectively by taking place this way

  1. radiants and spren realize their powers unchecked blow up planets. must stop spren and humans from bonding ever again

  2. radiants and bonded spren mutually break the bonds, resulting in bonded spren surviving the break

  3. former radiants, and former bonded spren agree to each watch and enforce the ban on bonding on each their respective people's

  4. Any time a budding surgebinder starts to happen, either side would notice and coordinate with the other side. use of fabrials or larkens would nullify new radiant, and then enforce the ban. 

 

Again, the problem is that once any kind of leadership bans something, you are going to have a huge number of people wanting to do it. No kind of law can completely stamp something out as long as people can still profit from it. 

 

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So my point is, if the theory is saying the suicide pact was to scare any spren from bonding ever again, then the pact failed. The sacrifice failed to inspire such fear because spren continued to bond despite it to the point where skybreakers had to run around killing any radiants that popped up, That it would have been easier and more effective to me, for the spren and humans to voluntarily break the bond, and actively enforce a ban than kill themselves and hope the message accomplishes their goal. 

I've said this before, but as long as spren knew that bonding existed, you're never going to have any situation where no one bonded ever, that's simply not possible. But because of the Recreance, the number of bonds being made was reduced to the point that the Skybreakers were able to effectively erase the knowledege of bonding from human history because there were so few spren bonding. That's literally amazing. There's no way a general ban on bonding would be that effective.

 

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and even that still failed because whole organizations still popped up, that still believed in bonding, despite this horrific and grim message of spren death.

It didn't fail, the Circle and the cryptics don't believe in bonding per say, Wyndle was against it and Pattern is convinced Shallan will kill him. They're simply more frightened of Odium than they are of bonding.

 

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I am saying that the reason for the recreance includes the power blowy up planets issue as well as other reasons we do not know because what little that did leak from the spren as they were killed by their radiants got muddled and confused. So surgebinding is bad is part of the reason but not the sole reason. The spren could not flee/break the bond without dying. The radiants as long as they believed in what they were doing, would not have broken the oath till they chose to turn their back on the first oath, which per WoB, they can do exactly that. So that to me is why the windrunners could fly in still fully powered, and then just break/kill the spren in one go. But as I said, that is my own interpretation of the information we have. Totally respect other people interpret or rationalize in a different way than me

I still don't recall any evidence that Surgebinding blowing up planets sis something a normal spren is even aware of. There's no evidence any information about that leaked at all.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[RShara]

It worked for over 2000 years. I think that's success by most measurements.

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

They decided to bond because they were frightened to death of Odium.

But Odium was a thing prior to the recreance, and the theory (if I am understanding you all correctly) disregards Odium, and feels the potential destruction due to the surges outweighs it, and the suicide is to drive that point home. 

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Again, the problem is that once any kind of leadership bans something, you are going to have a huge number of people wanting to do it. No kind of law can completely stamp something out as long as people can still profit from it. 

And yet for some reason societies still employ laws. Why outlaw anything? Someone is always going to try it anyway.

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I've said this before, but as long as spren knew that bonding existed, you're never going to have any situation where no one bonded ever, that's simply not possible. But because of the Recreance, the number of bonds being made was reduced to the point that the Skybreakers were able to effectively erase the knowledege of bonding from human history because there were so few spren bonding. That's literally amazing. There's no way a general ban on bonding would be that effective.

But spren still know bonding is a thing even after the recreance. By this suicide idea, you are effectively halfing the number of individuals that can aid in its enforcement. 

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

It didn't fail, the Circle and the cryptics don't believe in bonding per say, Wyndle was against it and Pattern is convinced Shallan will kill him. They're simply more frightened of Odium than they are of bonding.

Wyndle wasn't against bonding. He just wanted to bond someone else. The Circle chose Lift in particular. So given that Odium was always a thing, and this suicide was supposed to scare spren more than Odium, then the sacrifice failed. 

 

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I still don't recall any evidence that Surgebinding blowing up planets sis something a normal spren is even aware of. There's no evidence any information about that leaked at all.

Ivory talks about it to Jasnah. Ivory is a normal spren.

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

It worked for over 2000 years. I think that's success by most measurements.

But (if I am understanding the theory you are all positing correctly), it didn't work for 2000 years. Spren continued to bond anyway despite the grand sacrifice that was supposed to scare them straight.