Could the Radiants have wanted to kill their order?

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But (if I am understanding the theory you are all positing correctly), it didn't work for 2000 years. Spren continued to bond anyway despite the grand sacrifice that was supposed to scare them straight. 

No? They only started bonding again recently, because they could sense a Desolation coming, and the enemy of their enemy is their friend. Better to risk possible death for a few by bonding than to risk death for all with Odium threatening. No spren, other than the Skybreakers who didn't break their Oaths anyway, has bonded in over 2000 years.

Edited June 10, 2019 by RShara

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

No? They only started bonding again recently, because they could sense a Desolation coming, and the enemy of their enemy is their friend. Better to risk possible death for a few by bonding than to risk death for all with Odium threatening. No spren, other than the Skybreakers who didn't break their Oaths anyway, has bonded in over 2000 years.

Wasn't Nale doing his radiant killing since Honor died?

“Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”

Edited June 10, 2019 by Pathfinder

[RShara she/her]

He might have been watching for them, but we don't see him actually finding any until recently.

[Renen]

I have a feeling that the destruction of the planet might be a red herring. It just feels off that basically being "eco friendly" is what made radiants murder their BFFs. 

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But Odium was a thing prior to the recreance, and the theory (if I am understanding you all correctly) disregards Odium, and feels the potential destruction due to the surges outweighs it, and the suicide is to drive that point home. 

We're not sure how active Odium was back then. It could really be that they decided that the world blowing up was more of an issue for them. 

 

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And yet for some reason societies still employ laws. Why outlaw anything? Someone is always going to try it anyway.

For the sake of order in society, obviously. But the issue of Radiants destroying the world goes way beyond that, so they decided on something extreme to prevent it. 

 

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But spren still know bonding is a thing even after the recreance. By this suicide idea, you are effectively halfing the number of individuals that can aid in its enforcement.

Enforcement won't change the problem. 

 

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Wyndle wasn't against bonding. He just wanted to bond someone else. The Circle chose Lift in particular.

Wyndle never wanted to bond with anyone, but he would have preferred the old shoemaker (?) to Lift. 

 

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So given that Odium was always a thing, and this suicide was supposed to scare spren more than Odium, then the sacrifice failed. 

Odium is literally taking over Shadesmar, and the majority of spren are still too afraid to bond, so the sacrifice is working wonders. 

 

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Ivory talks about it to Jasnah. Ivory is a normal spren.

Didn't he get that info from Jasnah? 

 

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But (if I am understanding the theory you are all positing correctly), it didn't work for 2000 years. Spren continued to bond anyway despite the grand sacrifice that was supposed to scare them straight. 

Why are you acting as if the idea was a failure because it wasn't 100% effective? Nothing is that effective.

But the Recreance was pretty much as effective as it's possible to get, since the number of bonds being made is so low that the Skybreakers can wipe them out. 

That's no way outlawing it would have the same effect. 

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, RShara said:

He might have been watching for them, but we don't see him actually finding any until recently.

So if he was watching for them, regardless whether they popped up or not, then that to me implies Nale at least felt the message of the sacrifice wasn't enough. If Nale was working with the knights that killed their spren, and it was meant to be a two pronged plan (message coupled with Nale keeping an eye out) then again, personally I think mutual enforcement (both humans and spren alive with the intent to enforce a ban on bonding) instead of suicide would be more effective. If Nale was not connected to that group, as in not part of the plan, just coincidental, then the plan failed because Nale was still necesarry. They relied on the message itself to be an effective deterrent with no further enforcement nor preventative measures required. So any spren that pops up at any time to bond would result in the suicide pact being a failure. 

Again, we have so little information, our disagreement is more along the lines on what we personally feel would make more sense. Not trying to convince you or change your mind. The OP just asked what people thought, and I was saying why it doesn't work for me. I totally respect and get why it would work for you. 

14 hours ago, Renen said:

I have a feeling that the destruction of the planet might be a red herring. It just feels off that basically being "eco friendly" is what made radiants murder their BFFs. 

Hmmmm, interesting thought. Personally I think the destruction of the planet was a part of the reason, but that there is a lot more going on that we do not know. So we agree to a degree lol

11 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

We're not sure how active Odium was back then. It could really be that they decided that the world blowing up was more of an issue for them. 

Odium actively fueled the singers voidlight in past desolations. Can't really see him not being as active back then. 

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For the sake of order in society, obviously. But the issue of Radiants destroying the world goes way beyond that, so they decided on something extreme to prevent it. 

We have nuclear weapons present across the globe in various nations despite the near mutually assured destruction of the cold war. Yet there is still diplomatic missions and agreements to not employ them. The leaders of the countries killing themselves to send a message to the world that nuclear war is a bad thing doesn't change that nations could change hands and a leader arises that thinks having nukes is worth the risk. So we have agreements in place in the effort to prevent nuclear war from breaking out. If nations change hands via revolutions or such, new discussions and agreements can be made to maintain the peace with the new nuclear power as has been done. But a single round of suicides would not maintain the regulation. Like with Rshara, this just comes down to personal interpretation. You feel the message from a mass suicide is enough. I do not. I feel there needs to be continual enforcement from both humans and spren if that was the goal. I personally theorize differently. I think the Radiants killed the spren against their wish. I think there is something more going on than what we know at this time. 

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Enforcement won't change the problem. 

But it would maintain it. While killing yourself and hoping the problem goes away in my mind does not. 

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Wyndle never wanted to bond with anyone, but he would have preferred the old shoemaker (?) to Lift. 

When we first meet Wyndle, he goes on about an elderly gardener he would have bonded. Later when we see Wyndle, he remarks how the Circle considered him bonding the old shoemaker (Ym), but ultimately decided on Lift. I will pull up the quotes to verify

Words of Radiance page 684

"You realize I didn't choose you" he said "I wanted to pick a distinguished Iriali matron. A grandmother, an accomplished gardener. But no, the Ring said we should choose you. She has visited the Old magic they said. Our mother has blessed her they said. She will be young and we can mold her they said. Well, they don't have to put up with-"

Arcanum Unbound page 562

"Did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you? A very kindly man who took care of children. I could have lived quietly, helping him, making shoes. I could have done an entire display of shoes!"

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Odium is literally taking over Shadesmar, and the majority of spren are still too afraid to bond, so the sacrifice is working wonders. 

That is not related whatsoever. The fused taking over the cognitive realm was starting as per oathbringer in the time line. Spren bonded prior to that anyway as Kaladin was bonded to Syl before the fused were even a thing to take over the cognitive realm. 

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Didn't he get that info from Jasnah? 

Nope. Ivory held back all through way of kings because his people saw it as a betrayal. In oathbringer he had opened up to Jasnah in shadesmar while they spoke with the highspren (skybreaker spren which are also "normal" spren by your definition) over the cause. Jasnah remarks about wanting to tell Dalinar, but Ivory stated he was concerned by telling Dalinar, the radiants would kill their spren again and that he was ok with her knowing because she is different because she is emotionless so won't make the same choice that the ancient radiants made. 

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Why are you acting as if the idea was a failure because it wasn't 100% effective? Nothing is that effective.

Because the theory I am understanding you are saying is that the mass suicide was intended to send a message so grave that no spren would ever want to bond again. I responded to Rshara regarding Nale. It looks to me that Nale was not part of that plan. If that is the case, then to me you are saying the spren committed suicide, hoping that one action would have such a strong effect, that no further maintenance would be required. Spren would stop bonding, full stop. When as we have seen that is not the case. If they were grouped with Nale, then 1. they admit the suicide pact is not enough to prevent further bonding, and 2. Nale as a secret society is not enough to prevent bonding from occurring because radiants have popped up. I personally feel that if this was the actual goal of what occurred at the recreance, that it would have made more sense for them to voluntarily end the bonds, and humans and spren work together to maintain an active ban against it, so even if anyone did bond, the bond could then be ended. It would be maintained. It would be continually enforced. That is why I do not think the suicide pact as viable to me. It, to me, couldn't accomplish what it seems to me you are all positing its goal was. 

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But the Recreance was pretty much as effective as it's possible to get, since the number of bonds being made is so low that the Skybreakers can wipe them out. 

That's no way outlawing it would have the same effect. 

And for all the reasons I outlined above, I disagree. So I wish you luck with your theory, agree to disagree, and guess we will RAFO!

Edited June 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Odium actively fueled the singers voidlight in past desolations. Can't really see him not being as active back then. But it would maintain it. While killing yourself and hoping the problem goes away in my mind does not. 

By the time of the Recreance, the Parshendi had already been turned into parshmen, so Odium was lacking in servants. The guy is immortal so it's not weird if he decided to leave things alone for a while. In fact, that could even be a part of his plan.

 

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We have nuclear weapons present across the globe in various nations despite the near mutually assured destruction of the cold war. Yet there is still diplomatic missions and agreements to not employ them. The leaders of the countries killing themselves to send a message to the world that nuclear war is a bad thing doesn't change that nations could change hands and a leader arises that thinks having nukes is worth the risk. So we have agreements in place in the effort to prevent nuclear war from breaking out. If nations change hands via revolutions or such, new discussions and agreements can be made to maintain the peace with the new nuclear power as has been done. But a single round of suicides would not maintain the regulation. Like with Rshara, this just comes down to personal interpretation.

This isn't even remotely the same thing. Nuclear weapons are not something that everyone can use, only countries with advanced scientific knowledge. Agreements are suffiecient in that case.

 

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You feel the message from a mass suicide is enough. I do not. I feel there needs to be continual enforcement from both humans and spren if that was the goal. I personally theorize differently.

But at the the end of the day, it did work, the Recreance frightened the spren enough that there have been barely any bonds in 2000 years, to the point the concept became forgotten to humans. No matter what kind of regulation you use, in a world where basically any spren can make a bond, you would still have a lot of spren bonding.

 

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When we first meet Wyndle, he goes on about an elderly gardener he would have bonded. Later when we see Wyndle, he remarks how the Circle considered him bonding the old shoemaker (Ym), but ultimately decided on Lift. I will pull up the quotes to verify

Wyndle would have preferred the shoemaker to Lift, but if he had a choice he wouldn't want to be bonded at all.

 

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That is not related whatsoever. The fused taking over the cognitive realm was starting as per oathbringer in the time line. Spren bonded prior to that anyway as Kaladin was bonded to Syl before the fused were even a thing to take over the cognitive realm. 

Syl has pre-Recreance sensibilities, so you can't use her as an example. Pattern was sent to Shallan because the Cryptics were worried about Odium, so he was clearly getting to be an issue before then, same with Wyndle.

 

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Because the theory I am understanding you are saying is that the mass suicide was intended to send a message so grave that no spren would ever want to bond again. I responded to Rshara regarding Nale. It looks to me that Nale was not part of that plan. If that is the case, then to me you are saying the spren committed suicide, hoping that one action would have such a strong effect, that no further maintenance would be required. Spren would stop bonding, full stop. When as we have seen that is not the case. If they were grouped with Nale, then 1. they admit the suicide pact is not enough to prevent further bonding, and 2. Nale as a secret society is not enough to prevent bonding from occurring because radiants have popped up. I personally feel that if this was the actual goal of what occurred at the recreance, that it would have made more sense for them to voluntarily end the bonds, and humans and spren work together to maintain an active ban against it, so even if anyone did bond, the bond could then be ended. It would be maintained. It would be continually enforced. That is why I do not think the suicide pact as viable to me. It, to me, couldn't accomplish what it seems to me you are all positing its goal was. 

For the nth time, there is absolutely no way to ensure that no spren would bond again, ever. That is impossible. They were likely hoping that the Recreance would make bonding such a taboo that the majority of spren would be too afraid to bond. We can see in the books that this tactic worked. 

Judging from what the Skybreakers did, I wouldn't be surprised if they were part of the plan and hid themselves away so they could get rid of the strays that would bond again. Your idea of simply banning bonding would have lead to a greater amount of Radiants, since without the cultural taboo of the Recreance stopping them, there would be many spren willing to bond even if it were illegal.

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

By the time of the Recreance, the Parshendi had already been turned into parshmen, so Odium was lacking in servants. The guy is immortal so it's not weird if he decided to leave things alone for a while. In fact, that could even be a part of his plan.

The everstorm taking special time to focus on destroying Taln's temple in particular does not say to me that was part of his plan from the beginning lol

4 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

This isn't even remotely the same thing. Nuclear weapons are not something that everyone can use, only countries with advanced scientific knowledge. Agreements are suffiecient in that case.

Do you know what a dirty bomb is?

4 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

But at the the end of the day, it did work, the Recreance frightened the spren enough that there have been barely any bonds in 2000 years, to the point the concept became forgotten to humans. No matter what kind of regulation you use, in a world where basically any spren can make a bond, you would still have a lot of spren bonding.

But it didn't. Nale still had to curtail it and even then he failed. And as I said we fundamentally disagree on this point. I feel both sides maintaining continual enforcement would be more effective than a mass suicide. I am not trying to change your mind, and frankly you are not going to be able to change my mind, because we do not have enough evidence in either direction. It just comes down to difference in interpretation. Each are valid. You feel it is enough. I do not. 

4 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Wyndle would have preferred the shoemaker to Lift, but if he had a choice he wouldn't want to be bonded at all.

I just quoted the scenes in my prior post. This is incorrect. Wyndle wanted to bond a gardener. The Circle considered having him bond the shoemaker. I wrote it out word for word for you. 

4 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Syl has pre-Recreance sensibilities, so you can't use her as an example. Pattern was sent to Shallan because the Cryptics were worried about Odium, so he was clearly getting to be an issue before then, same with Wyndle.

Nope. Pattern volunteered to bond Shallan because they wanted to learn about humans and the bond. Jasnah reasoned that the spren bonding enmasse was like an immune system of a body kicking in. But that doesn't change Pattern's reason. 

4 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

For the nth time, there is absolutely no way to ensure that no spren would bond again, ever. That is impossible. They were likely hoping that the Recreance would make bonding such a taboo that the majority of spren would be too afraid to bond. We can see in the books that this tactic worked. 

And for the nth time, you are self contradicting yourself

1. there is no way to prevent spren from bonding again ever

2. the suicide pact was to make spren too afraid to bond

3. it worked that the suicide bond made spren too afraid to bond

Except it didn't. Spren still bonded! The only reason we didn't see more radiants was because of Nale (potentially unconnected to the suicide pact) was at the suggestion of Ishar, killing them after they had already bonded. Nale is the proof that enforcement is necessary. That the suicide pact alone is not enough to prevent bonding. To me humans and spren working together open and notoriously would be more effective than Nale and his skybreakers working in secret. 

4 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Judging from what the Skybreakers did, I wouldn't be surprised if they were part of the plan and hid themselves away so they could get rid of the strays that would bond again. Your idea of simply banning bonding would have lead to a greater amount of Radiants, since without the cultural taboo of the Recreance stopping them, there would be many spren willing to bond even if it were illegal.

If the skybreakers were apart of the plan (which I do not think is the case but lets say in this case they were), then that is confirmation that the suicide pact is not enough and continual maintenance and enforcement is needed. The continual enforcement Nale provided failed, because there are radiants successfully bonded that have progressed very far in their oaths. In my opinion, humans and sprens operating open and notorious with a ban that everyone knows why there is a ban, would be more effective than a suicide pact and a dagger in the dark. You disagree. To each their own. Agree to disagree. 

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The everstorm taking special time to focus on destroying Taln's temple in particular does not say to me that was part of his plan from the beginning lol

I was referring to the Recreance, not the Oathpact.

 

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Do you know what a dirty bomb is?

I'm well aware. Dirty bombs are dangerous, but not as dangerous as something like Fat Man, for example.

 

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But it didn't. Nale still had to curtail it and even then he failed. And as I said we fundamentally disagree on this point. I feel both sides maintaining continual enforcement would be more effective than a mass suicide. I am not trying to change your mind, and frankly you are not going to be able to change my mind, because we do not have enough evidence in either direction. It just comes down to difference in interpretation. Each are valid. You feel it is enough. I do not. 

Failed in what way exactly? Let's recall that for 2000 years, bonding was nearly unheard of. In terms of deterrence, that's a smashing success. I really don't see how any kind of standard enforcement would equal this.

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And for the nth time, you are self contradicting yourself

1. there is no way to prevent spren from bonding again ever

2. the suicide pact was to make spren too afraid to bond

3. it worked that the suicide bond made spren too afraid to bond

Except it didn't. Spren still bonded! The only reason we didn't see more radiants was because of Nale (potentially unconnected to the suicide pact) was at the suggestion of Ishar, killing them after they had already bonded. Nale is the proof that enforcement is necessary. That the suicide pact alone is not enough to prevent bonding. To me humans and spren working together open and notoriously would be more effective than Nale and his skybreakers working in secret. 

 

What I said is that there is no way to prevent every single spren from bonding. That's just no how people work. There will always be outliers. The Recreance made most spren too afraid to bond, which is what allowed the Skybreakers to get rid of the outliers, to the point that bonding became unheard of. I never said that enforcement was unnecessary, simply that standard enforcement, i.e. making something illegal and enforcing that was never going to stop bonding when it's something that literally all spren can do.

 

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I just quoted the scenes in my prior post. This is incorrect. Wyndle wanted to bond a gardener. The Circle considered having him bond the shoemaker. I wrote it out word for word for you. 

Yes, like I stated myself, Wyndle would have preferred the shoemaker if he could choose. But he would have preferred no bonding at all even more.

 

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If the skybreakers were apart of the plan (which I do not think is the case but lets say in this case they were), then that is confirmation that the suicide pact is not enough and continual maintenance and enforcement is needed. The continual enforcement Nale provided failed, because there are radiants successfully bonded that have progressed very far in their oaths. In my opinion, humans and sprens operating open and notorious with a ban that everyone knows why there is a ban, would be more effective than a suicide pact and a dagger in the dark. You disagree. To each their own. Agree to disagree. 

Again, Nale didn't fail. The Recreance and the Skybreakers stopping Radiants worked because bonding was literally not a thing for 2000 years. Only very few people bonded and those were dealt with. The only reason it's returning in larger numbers is because of Odium.

I find it very hard to believe that standard enforcement could have a comparable effect.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I was referring to the Recreance, not the Oathpact.

My statement still stands. 

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I'm well aware. Dirty bombs are dangerous, but not as dangerous as something like Fat Man, for example.

So wiping out an entire city of people (actually more but I would rather not google the exact radius on this computer), exempts them? My point still stands

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Failed in what way exactly? Let's recall that for 2000 years, bonding was nearly unheard of. In terms of deterrence, that's a smashing success. I really don't see how any kind of standard enforcement would equal this.

I have already replied to this 3 times. At this point I am just repeating myself. Nale was a thing since Honor died. For me, if the sacrifice relies on Nale to maintain the ban on bonding, then I still maintain having humans and spren work together on the ban would have been better than a suicide pact coupled with a secret society. So such a sacrifice plan does not make sense for me. 

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What I said is that there is no way to prevent every single spren from bonding. That's just no how people work. There will always be outliers. The Recreance made most spren too afraid to bond, which is what allowed the Skybreakers to get rid of the outliers, to the point that bonding became unheard of. I never said that enforcement was unnecessary, simply that standard enforcement, i.e. making something illegal and enforcing that was never going to stop bonding when it's something that literally all spren can do.

And if the plan was that the sacrifice was to scare all the spren straight from bonding, without any other means to prevent said bond, then the sacrifice to me was pointless because ultimately radiants will still bond, and whatever the reason for the sacrifice to begin with will happen anyway. So unless included in the plan is a regular sacrifice of all bonded knights agreeing to do so again and again every however many years, the sacrifice does not work because it cannot by itself accomplish its goal. 

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Yes, like I stated myself, Wyndle would have preferred the shoemaker if he could choose. But he would have preferred no bonding at all even more.

Ok, I will post the quote yet again

Words of Radiance page 684

"You realize I didn't choose you" he said "I wanted to pick a distinguished Iriali matron. A grandmother, an accomplished gardener. But no, the Ring said we should choose you. She has visited the Old magic they said. Our mother has blessed her they said. She will be young and we can mold her they said. Well, they don't have to put up with-"

As per that quote Wyndle wanted to bond a gardener. Not the circle. Wyndle. 

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Again, Nale didn't fail. The Recreance and the Skybreakers stopping Radiants worked because bonding was literally not a thing for 2000 years. Only very few people bonded and those were dealt with. The only reason it's returning in larger numbers is because of Odium.

I find it very hard to believe that standard enforcement could have a comparable effect.

And again Odium had already been a thing before as it is now, and that didn't stop them from killing their spren back then. 

I find it very hard to believe that a single mass suicide could scare spren and their offspring enough to prevent radiants from bonding. 

Now that we established what we both find hard to believe, I yet again, agree to disagree. It works for you. It doesn't for me. I wish you luck with your theory. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Pathfinder

[RShara she/her]

I feel like at this point, everyone is just talking past each other and that we should agree to disagree before we start getting upset

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, RShara said:

I feel like at this point, everyone is just talking past each other and that we should agree to disagree before we start getting upset

As I have said at least 5 times in this thread, I am more than happy to agree to disagree

[RShara she/her]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As I have said at least 5 times in this thread, I am more than happy to agree to disagree

Yep, and we ended amicably. I just thought I'd offer that as a suggestion now, as well.

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

And if the plan was that the sacrifice was to scare all the spren straight from bonding, without any other means to prevent said bond, then the sacrifice to me was pointless because ultimately radiants will still bond, and whatever the reason for the sacrifice to begin with will happen anyway. So unless included in the plan is a regular sacrifice of all bonded knights agreeing to do so again and again every however many years, the sacrifice does not work because it cannot by itself accomplish its goal.  

And what makes you believe that standard enforcement could do better than the almost zero bonding that the Recreance and Skybreakers achieved? As I've mentioned before, I don't think the Recreance alone was supposed to be the plan. The plan was always for the Skybreakers to clean up any outliers that bonded anyway. 

 

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I have already replied to this 3 times. At this point I am just repeating myself. Nale was a thing since Honor died. For me, if the sacrifice relies on Nale to maintain the ban on bonding, then I still maintain having humans and spren work together on the ban would have been better than a suicide pact coupled with a secret society. So such a sacrifice plan does not make sense for me. 

I'll repeat myself again as well. The plan worked. Bonding stopped happening for the most part. How is making bonding more well known, as it would inevitably be if humans and spren worked together to stop it, conducive to the goal of stopping bonding.

 

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Ok, I will post the quote yet again

Words of Radiance page 684

"You realize I didn't choose you" he said "I wanted to pick a distinguished Iriali matron. A grandmother, an accomplished gardener. But no, the Ring said we should choose you. She has visited the Old magic they said. Our mother has blessed her they said. She will be young and we can mold her they said. Well, they don't have to put up with-"

As per that quote Wyndle wanted to bond a gardener. Not the circle. Wyndle.

 

I replied to this already. Wyndle would have chosen the gardener if he could choose who  to bond with yes, I never denied that. What I am saying is that Wyndle never wanted to bond at all. He is doing it only because the Ring is instructing him to. He has said on multiple occasions that he would like to go home, back to his garden.

 

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And again Odium had already been a thing before as it is now, and that didn't stop them from killing their spren back then. 

Odium is not active at all times. We know that the False Desolation happened just before the Recreance, and that Odium was most likely not involved overmuch in it. It's not implausible that with the Parshendi, Fused and Unmade neutralized, and Odium inactive, they viewed the end of the world more important than him.

 

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I find it very hard to believe that a single mass suicide could scare spren and their offspring enough to prevent radiants from bonding. 

You don't have to believe it. We literally see this in the book. The Recreance made bonding taboo to the point that only only weirdos were doing it for years, and the only reason spren society as a whole started experimenting with it again is because of Odium.

 

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Now that we established what we both find hard to believe, I yet again, agree to disagree. It works for you. It doesn't for me. I wish you luck with your theory. 

 

Same to you.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

And what makes you believe that standard enforcement could do better than the almost zero bonding that the Recreance and Skybreakers achieved? As I've mentioned before, I don't think the Recreance alone was supposed to be the plan. The plan was always for the Skybreakers to clean up any outliers that bonded anyway. 

Not replying as we are agreeing to disagree based on your last part of this post

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I'll repeat myself again as well. The plan worked. Bonding stopped happening for the most part. How is making bonding more well known, as it would inevitably be if humans and spren worked together to stop it, conducive to the goal of stopping bonding.

Not replying as we are agreeing to disagree based on your last part of this post

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I replied to this already. Wyndle would have chosen the shoemaker if he could choose who  to bond with yes, I never denied that. What I am saying is that Wyndle never wanted to bond at all. He is doing it only because the Ring is instructing him to. He has said on multiple occasions that he would like to go home, back to his garden.

But.....the quote says gardener.....not shoemaker...... gardener and shoemaker are two different people.......

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Odium is not active at all times. We know that the False Desolation happened just before the Recreance, and that Odium was most likely not involved overmuch in it. It's not implausible that with the Parshendi, Fused and Unmade neutralized, and Odium inactive, they viewed the end of the world more important than him.

Not replying as we are agreeing to disagree based on your last part of this post

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

You don't have to believe it. We literally see this in the book. The Recreance made bonding taboo to the point that only only weirdos were doing it for years, and the only reason spren society as a whole started experimenting with it again is because of Odium.

Not replying as we are agreeing to disagree based on your last part of this post

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Same to you.

Good luck with your theory. I will assume you wish me luck with mine. Thanks!

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

But.....the quote says gardener.....not shoemaker...... gardener and shoemaker are two different people.......

Whoops, sorry, my mistake there.