elantris Women in Shu-Dereth?

[Sasja2112 she/her]

Relistening to Elantris and seemingly every Derethi with any sort of title is a man. It has me thinking, could a woman gain rank in Shu-Dereth? Where would it stop? The Gyorns with their armour seem like a particularly masculine thing. IDK.

 

Also, I know the Derethi were modeled a bit on the Catholic church, but it seems like the monks are allowed to have sex/relationships? I remember Dilaf's dead wife being a big motivator for him. He WAS a spy at that point, but I don't see a character as fervent as Dilaf betraying his oaths like that, or at least not acknowledging it as a betrayal while telling the story to Hrathen. 

 

Speaking of Hrathen... I wonder if Gyorns are allowed to get it on. Asking for a friend... 

[sora_xo he/him]

It's a good question, actually, even I was thinking that Shu-Dereth is pretty patriarchal. I feel like because the emperor, the Wyrn, is the sole ruler of the empire and he doesn't have a queen or some high ranking female authority in his "court", so to speak, the priesthood is also consequentially male dominated. Also, not meaning to be sexist, but because of women having a slightly more fragile constitution than men biologically, the processes used by the Dakhor monks would be much more difficult to endure for women.

[Sasja2112 she/her]

6 hours ago, sora_xo said:

It's a good question, actually, even I was thinking that Shu-Dereth is pretty patriarchal. 

Definitely patriarchal. Most cultures on Sel seem to be either strongly patriarchal, like the Arelons, Fjordell, and Rose Empire, or undefined (no idea how the Dulas/JinDo/Mai Pon view sex roles). Teos are less restrictive of their women but it's still the king who is the major figure - I mean, we don't even know Sarene's mom's name.

 

So would Fjordell women be included in the Great Chain by supporting their husbands/sons?

 

As for the Dahkor bone warping stuff, yeah having stronger bones might help one endure the process, but it's investiture and investiture is weeeeeird. Dunno if natural laws would really apply. Like, in Stormlight, we have shardblades/shardplate as a culturally male thing, much like heavy armour and big swords are here on earth. Yet because it's investiture and not really your inherent physical strength that allows you to use those things, characters like Jasnah and Shallan who aren't exactly heavy hitters can have blades and (presumably) plate.

 

Do we have any sex/gender divisions or differences in investiture? 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Sasja2112
Forgot a point

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Sasja2112 said:

Do we have any sex/gender divisions or differences in investiture? 

Based of this. 

Quote

wiresegal

In OB, you explained that the Singers have four sexes. I was wondering... Can the Singers have genders other than those four, like humans? Even as simple as just not going with male, female, or malen/femalen. Could a transgender Singer use their ability to shift forms to change their biological reality? And, finally, could a Spren be non-binary, if it wasn't personified in a typical male/female way?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere as a whole, a person's perception of themselves has a lot of power over both their Spiritual and Physical forms. It is possible, with Investiture, to change their biology to match Cognitive perceptions--and while this could be easier for some races (like the Singers) it's not outside plausibility for any race.

There are non-binary spren, actually--and you should be meeting one important one quite soon in the books.

General Reddit 2018 (Jan. 1, 2018)

I'm gonna say no. 

[Sasja2112 she/her]

I am also pretty sure the answer is no. Male and female Returned, Mistborn, Radiants, Elantrians, and so forth can all do the same things...

 

Still doesn't tell us anything about the role of women in Shu-dereth  though I don't know if anything does. Have searched for a WOB to no avail. 

Interested in theories though!

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Sasja2112 said:

I am also pretty sure the answer is no. Male and female Returned, Mistborn, Radiants, Elantrians, and so forth can all do the same things...

 

Still doesn't tell us anything about the role of women in Shu-dereth  though I don't know if anything does. Have searched for a WOB to no avail. 

Interested in theories though!

We will get an answer here eventually. 

Brandon has said that the Elantris sequels have to be written prior to Mistborn Era three for behind the scenes reasons. And the Elantris sequel also takes place in Fjordell. 

So we gotta wait, but we're definitely going to get more info here. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Calderis

[Sasja2112 she/her]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And the Elantris sequel also takes place in Fjordell. 

I am so jazzed about this. We hear so much about Fjordell in Elantris and never, ever go there. I want to know more about Wyrn and the skaze and whether or not you could date a Gyorn so many other things. 

 

[Scion of the Mists]

13 hours ago, sora_xo said:

Also, not meaning to be sexist, but because of women having a slightly more fragile constitution than men biologically, the processes used by the Dakhor monks would be much more difficult to endure for women.

[citation needed]

[sora_xo he/him]

8 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

[citation needed]

Err, pardon me, did I phrase that in the wrong way? I really didn't mean any offense. I was just thinking from a biological standpoint. I mean, women have smaller skeletons that have less bone mass and thus they're actually more prone to bone-related stresses and injuries such as fractures and the like.

Edited May 11, 2019 by sora_xo

[sora_xo he/him]

14 hours ago, Sasja2112 said:

Definitely patriarchal. Most cultures on Sel seem to be either strongly patriarchal, like the Arelons, Fjordell, and Rose Empire, or undefined (no idea how the Dulas/JinDo/Mai Pon view sex roles). Teos are less restrictive of their women but it's still the king who is the major figure - I mean, we don't even know Sarene's mom's name.

 

So would Fjordell women be included in the Great Chain by supporting their husbands/sons?

 

As for the Dahkor bone warping stuff, yeah having stronger bones might help one endure the process, but it's investiture and investiture is weeeeeird. Dunno if natural laws would really apply. Like, in Stormlight, we have shardblades/shardplate as a culturally male thing, much like heavy armour and big swords are here on earth. Yet because it's investiture and not really your inherent physical strength that allows you to use those things, characters like Jasnah and Shallan who aren't exactly heavy hitters can have blades and (presumably) plate.

 

Do we have any sex/gender divisions or differences in investiture? 

Hmm, good point actually, there isn't anything holding women back when it comes to Investiture, and Brandon makes his female characters pretty badass. However, even if the Dakhor process is no problem for women, they might be prevented from doing it using the physical thing as an excuse. I mean, the way the Dakhor monks appear to people, it could be very easy to convince the Shu-Dereth women that the process is incredibly painful and dangerous and suppress their desire to do it.

[Inky]

I mean I'm not sure if the process being painful is a lie, but who knows. The answer will probably come in the Elantris sequels in like six years. 

[Sasja2112 she/her]

24 minutes ago, Inky said:

I mean I'm not sure if the process being painful is a lie, but who knows.

Yeah I think Hrathen reflects on how painful it was even just to do his arm...

26 minutes ago, Inky said:

The answer will probably come in the Elantris sequels in like six years. 

;__;