Another Kaladin 4th Oath Post....but a little different

[Pathfinder]

I know just about everyone has been theorizing what Kaladin's fourth oath will be, and what will he experience that will cause him to swear it. I have been having this idea bounce around in my head lately and I was curious everyone's thoughts. What if Kaladin isn't the first windrunner to swear the fourth oath in our current group? What if Drehy, or Lopen, or Teft or etc swears the 4th oath first? Perhaps they swore it off screen and when we enter book 4, they are already at oath 4. Then Kaladin becomes conflicted over being unable to overcome the 4th oath hurdle while his bridgemates are seemingly slowly surpassing him. The person that swore the fourth oath then helps Kaladin come to terms with it and then Kaladin swears it onscreen. This would coincide with how Syl told Kaladin to learn to let others save him sometimes. Thoughts?

[Ahriman he/him]

What if Kaladin never swears it at all? None of the Skybreakers other than Nale have reached the fifth oath in hundreds of years, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that in most orders, a lot of people don't get to the fourth or fifth oaths. I rather like the idea of Kaladin holding himself back and being surpassed by the people he thought he was leading.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

What if Kaladin never swears it at all? None of the Skybreakers other than Nale have reached the fifth oath in hundreds of years, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that in most orders, a lot of people don't get to the fourth or fifth oaths. I rather like the idea of Kaladin holding himself back and being surpassed by the people he thought he was leading.

Good point! We do have confirmation via WoB as well that just because you are a squire, or a radiant of any oath, does not guarantee you will advance or continue as a radiant. That would certainly subvert expectations. 

[MountainKing]

I would prefer is another Windrunner passes Kaladin on screen

[CosmicSieve]

I wonder how hard it is for any Radiant to reach their fourth oath. There was a Skybreaker who told Szeth that most Skybreakers only reached the third oath, and that she spent two decades at third oath before swearing her fourth. On the other hand Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep showed hundreds of Radiants with both armor and sword. On the other other hand, both Jasnah and Shallan seem to be on their fourth oath, with about six years with their spren and Shallan even having taken an extended leave of absence for most of that time. Hard to tell how quick or often is usual for the fourth oath being reached.

[Calyx]

1 minute ago, CosmicSieve said:

I wonder how hard it is for any Radiant to reach their fourth oath. There was a Skybreaker who told Szeth that most Skybreakers only reached the third oath, and that she spent two decades at third oath before swearing her fourth. On the other hand Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep showed hundreds of Radiants with both armor and sword. On the other other hand, both Jasnah and Shallan seem to be on their fourth oath, with about six years with their spren and Shallan even having taken an extended leave of absence for most of that time. Hard to tell how quick or often is usual for the fourth oath being reached.

Is Shallan really on her fourth oath? And if she was at some point, shouldn't she have regressed? She still seems to be suppressing her various truths most of the time.

As for Kaladin, swearing the fourth oath has been set up to be a pretty huge deal - his inability to do so led almost directly to Elhokar's death. I expect swearing the oath to be a huge part of his arc in book 4, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is his father who helps him do so.

I have to admit, though, that Sanderson loves subverting expectations. The idea of someone like Teft actually surpassing Kaladin in radiancy, even if only temporarily, is interesting.

[Ahriman he/him]

I'm a big fan of bad things happening to Kaladin, so I'd be down for him staying with the third oath forever, or at least for a very long time. I'd like to see Teft end up surpassing him.

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

I wonder how hard it is for any Radiant to reach their fourth oath. There was a Skybreaker who told Szeth that most Skybreakers only reached the third oath, and that she spent two decades at third oath before swearing her fourth. On the other hand Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep showed hundreds of Radiants with both armor and sword. On the other other hand, both Jasnah and Shallan seem to be on their fourth oath, with about six years with their spren and Shallan even having taken an extended leave of absence for most of that time. Hard to tell how quick or often is usual for the fourth oath being reached.

Perhaps it depends on the order and the individual? Maybe some individuals have difficultly getting past certain oaths. So Kaladin's is oath 4, while someone else might be oath 2 or 3, or none of the above. Szeth shot right through the first few oaths while others took longer. 

23 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Is Shallan really on her fourth oath? And if she was at some point, shouldn't she have regressed? She still seems to be suppressing her various truths most of the time.

As for Kaladin, swearing the fourth oath has been set up to be a pretty huge deal - his inability to do so led almost directly to Elhokar's death. I expect swearing the oath to be a huge part of his arc in book 4, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is his father who helps him do so.

I have to admit, though, that Sanderson loves subverting expectations. The idea of someone like Teft actually surpassing Kaladin in radiancy, even if only temporarily, is interesting.

The prevailing theory is she is at her fourth. The first is the oath everyone swears. The second is "i am terrified", the third is "i killed my father", the fourth "i killed my mother" (or it is mother than father, I forget the order). As of Words of radiance Brandon confirmed Shallan was ahead of Kaladin, who as of that time had just sworn his third oath, which would confirm that Shallan is at her fourth. 

That does seem to be the prevailing theory with Kaladin's 4th oath. Thank you for considering my theory interesting!

5 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

I'm a big fan of bad things happening to Kaladin, so I'd be down for him staying with the third oath forever, or at least for a very long time. I'd like to see Teft end up surpassing him.

LOL. 

[Calyx]

11 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

I'm a big fan of bad things happening to Kaladin, so I'd be down for him staying with the third oath forever, or at least for a very long time. I'd like to see Teft end up surpassing him.

Yeah, that just seems cruel.

On the other hand, I bet it vastly increases your enjoyment of Stormlight Archive books!

[Ahriman he/him]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Perhaps it depends on the order and the individual? Maybe some individuals have difficultly getting past certain oaths. So Kaladin's is oath 4, while someone else might be oath 2 or 3, or none of the above. Szeth shot right through the first few oaths while others took longer.

With Szeth, I got the feeling that he was kind of a Skybreaker at heart already, so some of the oaths were basically just a formality, affirming what he'd already decided. It probably does depend on the order, though. I would expect Bondsmiths, for instance, to be more likely to reach the fifth oath because there are fewer of them and their spren are a bigger deal. Maybe some spren are more selective about picking someone who can swear all the oaths. After all, I'm sure there were plenty of Knights Radiant who were just average and probably stayed at the third oath, maybe eventually hit oath four.

2 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Yeah, that just seems cruel.

On the other hand, I bet it vastly increases your enjoyment of Stormlight Archive books!

Joyful cruelty is how I make most of my decisions, but I actually think it would be interesting. Kaladin is always pushing himself, and up until now has been pretty much the leader of whatever pack he's in. I'd like to see him deal with the fact that sometimes, even if you're competent or full of potential, other people will get farther than you, even if you always thought you would be ahead of them. Accepting that, and everything that goes with it, could even lead him to reach the fourth oath.

[CosmicSieve]

35 minutes ago, Calyx said:

Is Shallan really on her fourth oath? And if she was at some point, shouldn't she have regressed? She still seems to be suppressing her various truths most of the time.

As for Kaladin, swearing the fourth oath has been set up to be a pretty huge deal - his inability to do so led almost directly to Elhokar's death. I expect swearing the oath to be a huge part of his arc in book 4, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is his father who helps him do so.

I have to admit, though, that Sanderson loves subverting expectations. The idea of someone like Teft actually surpassing Kaladin in radiancy, even if only temporarily, is interesting.

If there is one thing Kaladin and Shallan have painfully demonstrated, it's that they not only have to know their next oath (or truth), but also mean it. I am surprised Pattern didn't spend much of the time in Oathbringer spinning in place on the floor.

I expect the fourth oath does relate to something Lirin tried to teach Kaladin. I think Kaladin needs to accept the ideals of triage, by finding a way to prioritize who to help first, because he can't help everyone at once.

I also think it would be interesting if Teft passed Kaladin in oaths, just for how awkward  it would be. Not sure if Teft could get there so quickly, since he still has issues with what happened to the Envisagers (sp?) after he turned them in. Teft might have some serious issues with himself about knowing what is right. Not sure I could take it seriously if The Lopen is the one to pass Kaladin. Those were the only two developed as having spren in Oathbringer, and I don't think I'd like it if someone random is suddenly at fourth oath without it having been developed on page. 

[Calyx]

41 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

Joyful cruelty is how I make most of my decisions, but I actually think it would be interesting. Kaladin is always pushing himself, and up until now has been pretty much the leader of whatever pack he's in. I'd like to see him deal with the fact that sometimes, even if you're competent or full of potential, other people will get farther than you, even if you always thought you would be ahead of them. Accepting that, and everything that goes with it, could even lead him to reach the fourth oath.

I agree, I think that would be a super interesting arc for Kaladin - thats why I wouldn't mind seeing him be surpassed by Teft, for example. 

24 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

I expect the fourth oath does relate to something Lirin tried to teach Kaladin. I think Kaladin needs to accept the ideals of triage, by finding a way to prioritize who to help first, because he can't help everyone at once.

I think this is a great idea - and we know from Brandon's recent reading that Lirin will be a part of the book!

24 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

I also think it would be interesting if Teft passed Kaladin in oaths, just for how awkward  it would be. Not sure if Teft could get there so quickly, since he still has issues with what happened to the Envisagers (sp?) after he turned them in. Teft might have some serious issues with himself about knowing what is right. Not sure I could take it seriously if The Lopen is the one to pass Kaladin. Those were the only two developed as having spren in Oathbringer, and I don't think I'd like it if someone random is suddenly at fourth oath without it having been developed on page. 

It would be terrible if The Lopen were the one to pass Kaladin... I like The Lopen, in small doses, but that would just be ridiculous. Other than Teft, I think the main options might be Skar or Drehy - they managed to save Elhokar's son and get everyone out of Kolinar, can't have been easy. I imagine they are now more than ready for spren of their own.

[MountainKing]

1 hour ago, Calyx said:

Is Shallan really on her fourth oath? And if she was at some point, shouldn't she have regressed? She still seems to be suppressing her various truths most of the time.

As for Kaladin, swearing the fourth oath has been set up to be a pretty huge deal - his inability to do so led almost directly to Elhokar's death. I expect swearing the oath to be a huge part of his arc in book 4, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is his father who helps him do so.

I have to admit, though, that Sanderson loves subverting expectations. The idea of someone like Teft actually surpassing Kaladin in radiancy, even if only temporarily, is interesting.

I have a fan theory that Highspren choose radiants that can reach the third oath but don't understand enough about what the oaths are trying to teach to reach the fourth oath.

[Merrickz he/him]

The idea the another Bridgeman would lead really well into the idea I've seen for the 4th ideal. 

"I will allow others to protect me when I cannot on my own"

This would work perfectly as the Bridgemen will have been protected by Kaladin and then Kaladin could be helped/protected by the 4th ideal bridgeman

[Pathfinder]

56 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

With Szeth, I got the feeling that he was kind of a Skybreaker at heart already, so some of the oaths were basically just a formality, affirming what he'd already decided. It probably does depend on the order, though. I would expect Bondsmiths, for instance, to be more likely to reach the fifth oath because there are fewer of them and their spren are a bigger deal. Maybe some spren are more selective about picking someone who can swear all the oaths. After all, I'm sure there were plenty of Knights Radiant who were just average and probably stayed at the third oath, maybe eventually hit oath four.

Joyful cruelty is how I make most of my decisions, but I actually think it would be interesting. Kaladin is always pushing himself, and up until now has been pretty much the leader of whatever pack he's in. I'd like to see him deal with the fact that sometimes, even if you're competent or full of potential, other people will get farther than you, even if you always thought you would be ahead of them. Accepting that, and everything that goes with it, could even lead him to reach the fourth oath.

Sorry, to clarify what I mean. Let us say person A and person B are members of the windrunners. Person A had a close family member killed by a higher up (not referring to Moash). Person A reaches the 3rd oath, but has to protect that higher up person. Because of what that higher up person did, Person A cannot swear the 3rd oath because they just cannot get past protecting someone they despise, regardless the reasoning. Person B grew up in the slums. Everyone was out for themselves. The weak are killed everyday. You have to work to survive. Person B gathered a group of other urchins on the streets and together they work to survive, protecting each other. Every person has to carry their weight or the whole group will fall. Person B has no time for those who Person B feels won't pull their weight and risk everyone else's lives. Person B cannot swear the second oath because person B will not protect those who cannot protect themselves. However Person B would clearly be able to swear the 4th oath easily based on what little we know. Now take those two individuals, and put them in a different order. The backstories may result in them not having any issues with any of the oaths of the other order, or may result in them having more issues, or less issues. At least that is my theory. Hope that clarified things. 

 

8 minutes ago, Merrickz said:

The idea the another Bridgeman would lead really well into the idea I've seen for the 4th ideal. 

"I will allow others to protect me when I cannot on my own"

This would work perfectly as the Bridgemen will have been protected by Kaladin and then Kaladin could be helped/protected by the 4th ideal bridgeman

True true. Maybe we are on to something!

[Karger he/him]

29 minutes ago, Merrickz said:

This would work perfectly as the Bridgemen will have been protected by Kaladin and then Kaladin could be helped/protected by the 4th ideal bridgeman

Perhaps bridge 4(or at least the bonded members) will swear this oath on mass to protect Kaladin when he needs it.

[Ahriman he/him]

19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Sorry, to clarify what I mean. Let us say person A and person B are members of the windrunners. Person A had a close family member killed by a higher up (not referring to Moash). Person A reaches the 3rd oath, but has to protect that higher up person. Because of what that higher up person did, Person A cannot swear the 3rd oath because they just cannot get past protecting someone they despise, regardless the reasoning. Person B grew up in the slums. Everyone was out for themselves. The weak are killed everyday. You have to work to survive. Person B gathered a group of other urchins on the streets and together they work to survive, protecting each other. Every person has to carry their weight or the whole group will fall. Person B has no time for those who Person B feels won't pull their weight and risk everyone else's lives. Person B cannot swear the second oath because person B will not protect those who cannot protect themselves. However Person B would clearly be able to swear the 4th oath easily based on what little we know. Now take those two individuals, and put them in a different order. The backstories may result in them not having any issues with any of the oaths of the other order, or may result in them having more issues, or less issues. At least that is my theory. Hope that clarified things.

That's pretty much what I figured you meant, although I wonder if Persons A and B would really end up in the same order. Do knights have to end up in the order that most matches their personalities, or is that just more convenient?

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

That's pretty much what I figured you meant, although I wonder if Persons A and B would really end up in the same order. Do knights have to end up in the order that most matches their personalities, or is that just more convenient?

Ah ok, sorry for repeating then! From what I have read, I believe individuals can have the personality traits for multiple orders. So for instance in a WoB Spensa could have been a member of three different orders (dustbringer, skybreaker, and edgedancer if I recall correctly). We know Ym had an edgedancer spren as well as a truthwatcher spren interested in him. I think it has also been theorized that the glory spren's interest in kaladin (that syl batted away and said "mine"), could hint that Kaladin could have ended up a bondsmith if things went differently. So I say that all to say I could see Person A and B ending up in the same order, or two completely different orders. Basically people are very individualistic and it seems spren's interest are also very individualistic. So I could see a person having trouble with one oath, while other oaths were easy, while someone else would find that oath easy, and the other oaths hard. Which makes me wonder more and more if someone else getting through the 4th oath before Kaladin is becoming more and more likely to me. Hmmm. Great conversation!

[Ahriman he/him]

Not a problem. I didn't know that about Spensa or Ym, mostly because I can't remember who Ym is at the moment. It's good to know that attracting multiple spren is confirmed to be possible, so I appreciate that. Onto the original topic, I also find the idea of someone else beating Kaladin to the fourth oath increasingly likely. Although part of me just wants to see Kaladin suffer a little extra.

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, Ahriman said:

Not a problem. I didn't know that about Spensa or Ym, mostly because I can't remember who Ym is at the moment. It's good to know that attracting multiple spren is confirmed to be possible, so I appreciate that. Onto the original topic, I also find the idea of someone else beating Kaladin to the fourth oath increasingly likely. Although part of me just wants to see Kaladin suffer a little extra.

Spensa is the main character from Skyward. One of the questioners were curious what order she would end up in if she was on Roshar. Ym was the Irian cobbler that was killed by Nale. He is a confirmed truthwatcher when killed. Wyndle mentions wanting to have bonded to a irian cobbler but that the circle had him bond Lift instead. It is strongly hinted that that cobbler was Ym, but I cannot recall if a specific WoB confirms it. i would need to check. 

Lol, I am glad you support my theory. Fingers crossed we are right!

[Nymeros]

I would love it Pathfinder. He's powerful enough physically that he doesnt strictly require it to be relevant in combat and he can develop without it. It will also keep him on an even playing field with his counterpart Moash. Additionally, I prefer Kaladin visually with his blue longcoat...cannot image him in Plate.

[Pathfinder]

23 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I would love it Pathfinder. He's powerful enough physically that he doesnt strictly require it to be relevant in combat and he can develop without it. It will also keep him on an even playing field with his counterpart Moash. Additionally, I prefer Kaladin visually with his blue longcoat...cannot image him in Plate.

Thank you!

 

This theory got a lot more traction than I expected it would. Now I am all the more excited for Book 4!

[ShardShaper he/him]

On 5/1/2019 at 0:49 PM, Ahriman said:

I'm a big fan of bad things happening to Kaladin, so I'd be down for him staying with the third oath forever, or at least for a very long time.

SHAME!!! HE HAS SUFFERED ENOUGH!! 

[Ahriman he/him]

6 hours ago, ShardShaper said:

SHAME!!! HE HAS SUFFERED ENOUGH!! 

No such thing as enough. I'd be so bored if he ever stopped suffering.

[quadbox]

God how frustrated must the spren of a knight who never advances past the first or second oath be lol