How Broken Soulcasting can get.

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

From my understanding of Rosharan ecology most stone on Roshar comes from the highstorms in the form of crem which latter hardens into stone.

I meant this part:

"stone on Roshar might have some knowledge of what it is like to be air because they come from highstorms in the form of crem.  Turning rock into smoke therefore seems fairly easy."

 

Jasnah talks extensively about how to soulcast particular essences, but I do not recall her ever saying that, nor a WoB stating that either. So if you could provide a quote, or WoB that says that, that would be great. Thanks!

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Jasnah talks extensively about how to soulcast particular essences, but I do not recall her ever saying that, nor a WoB stating that either. So if you could provide a quote, or WoB that says that, that would be great. Thanks!

Critical word is seems.  On earth most stone spent long periods as various gasses that condensed into stone over long periods of time.  Assuming that Crem also spends time in a gaseous state(while in highstorm) you can remind it of its former state as Kaza did in her interlude.  This is speculation but I think that it is well reasoned.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Critical word is seems.  On earth most stone spent long periods as various gasses that condensed into stone over long periods of time.  Assuming that Crem also spends time in a gaseous state(while in highstorm) you can remind it of its former state as Kaza did in her interlude.  This is speculation but I think that it is well reasoned.

Kaza was able to do what she did because she reasoned those pillars were air already soulcasted into into stone. She was offering to return it to what it once was. So those pillars were not made of naturally occurring stone worked into pillars sticking out of the water. She even says she cannot return it to air, but smoke would be close and it could feel free again. One moment, and I will update my post with the quote

 

Oathbringer page 561

"The stone did not wish to change. It was content with its long slumber in the ocean. But... yes, yes, it remembered. It had once been air, until someone had locked it into this shape. She could not make it air again; her Soulcaster had only one mode, not the full three. She did not know why. Smoke, she whispered to the stone. Freedom in the air. Remember? She tempted it, picking at its memories of dancing free."

Edited May 24, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Kaza was able to do what she did because she reasoned those pillars were air already soulcasted into into stone. She was offering to return it to what it once was. So those pillars were not made of naturally occurring stone worked into pillars sticking out of the water. She even says she cannot return it to air, but smoke would be close and it could feel free again. One moment, and I will update my post with the quote

That is because her soulcaster only makes smoke not because the rock into air transformation is impossible. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

41 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is because her soulcaster only makes smoke not because the rock into air transformation is impossible. 

I'm sorry, you misunderstood my point. The pillars were soulcasted. She was just attempting to return them to what they were before. They never were stone to begin with before the transformation.  Quote is included in my last post. 

[Karger he/him]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I'm sorry, you misunderstood my point. The pillars were soulcasted. She was just attempting to return them to what they were before. They never were stone to begin with before the transformation.  Quote is included in my last post. 

This is my point.  Kaza reminds the stone of a previous form to return them to something like their previous selves as Rosharans understand the world Transformation is a surge that can be accessed via soulcasting.  A Rosharan scientist likely views the change of crem the highstroms drop into stone as a real world example of this surge.  Reminding crem (or stone) of where it comes from to change it back into its old form.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

This is my point.  Kaza reminds the stone of a previous form to return them to something like their previous selves as Rosharans understand the world Transformation is a surge that can be accessed via soulcasting.  A Rosharan scientist likely views the change of crem the highstroms drop into stone as a real world example of this surge.  Reminding crem (or stone) of where it comes from to change it back into its old form.

And my point is it was only because the stone had been soulcasted originally. That it was not naturally rock to begin with. So any luck on that quote or WoB?

 

Otherwise agree to disagree. Won't bother to continue unless you post a quote or WoB.  Wish you luck with your theory!

Edited May 25, 2019 by Pathfinder

[ZenBossanova]

I expect we will see some limitations to soulcasting. In particular, I am thinking of soulcasting gems. 

If this were possible, then we should see evidence of Radiants doing this. I expect this is a blindspot of Rosharan soulcasting. 

Also, Brandon has said it conserves mass, even if he has shown it imperfectly. 

 

One thing I would like to see soulcast, is a large quantity of gunpower. That could really change things!

Edited May 25, 2019 by ZenBossanova

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I expect we will see some limitations to soulcasting. In particular, I am thinking of soulcasting gems. 

If this were possible, then we should see evidence of Radiants doing this. I expect this is a blindspot of Rosharan soulcasting. 

Also, Brandon has said it conserves mass, even if he has shown it imperfectly. 

 

One thing I would like to see soulcast, is a large quantity of gunpower. That could really change things!

So the WoB i posted recently in this thread shows that radiants can soulcast whatever essence they want from stormlight directly, regardless gemstones. the fabrial users are the only ones limited by the stones. There is another WoB where Brandon comments that the stones breaking when Jasnah soulcasts in front of Shallan is Jasnah fooling Shallan. Finally we see Jasnah soulcasting multiple times in succession multiple types of essences prior to Dalinar uniting the realms, without needing to switch between gemstones. So the gemstones seems to be a limitation for the fabrials alone.

As to conservation of mass, there was another WoB recent that I have posted below:

Sorana (paraphrased)

Is Soulcasting volume- or mass-preserving?

Brandon (paraphrased)

It's mass-preserving, but there are some strange things going on and that's why we don't get as much explosions as we should. You can see a bit of what is going when Jasnah Soulcasts air, there are some little reactions, but not as strong as you ought to get

 

Regarding gunpowder, theres a WoB for that too! lol

 

Phantine

At the risk of getting too technical, is there anything besides lack of knowledge preventing a soulcaster from turning some rocks into a bunch of plutonium and exploding?

I know you've got some rules attached to time bubbles to avoid those going nuclear so I wouldn't be surprised if there was something or another.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, Soulcasting isn't fission or fusion. It's a spiritual transformation process, not a physical one, and so you don't have to worry about some of these issues. There IS historical precedent of accidentally setting off fission reactions in the cosmere using the magic, but that was a different process. Soulcasting is actually pretty safe. (Well, on a grand scale.)

You could end up irradiating yourself, though, which wouldn't be very fun.

If you know what you were doing, making plutonium or uranium on Roshar wouldn't be difficult. The problem is more a matter of knowledge, and room for scientific exploration. They're unlikely to make atom bombs for the same reason they haven't made gunpowder. Once they figure out that some substances are important, they can learn to make them with Soulcasting (assuming they have Radiants) but some substances just don't occur naturally--so discovering them in the first place is difficult, and would require more modern scientific process.

Phantine

Okay, just to clarify here (since I'm not sure how up you are on early nuke designs)

A big enough chunk of uranium or plutonium will explode regardless of whether it's in a bomb or not. Early bomb designs just slammed two smaller chunks together so they'd be one big chunk.

For plutonium 'big enough' is about 35 pounds in one place - a chunk somewhere between the size of baseball and volleyball.

If I understand properly, people can soulcast from the cognitive realm into the physical, which implies once we get into a more modern stormlight setting soulcasters will make nuclear submarines look like small potatoes.

Brandon Sanderson

Slamming two chunks together so they became one big chunk seems an understatement, from what I remember. I'm under the impression that you had to use a great deal of explosive force to ram them together in order to set off a viable fission reaction. Doesn't it have to be compressed somewhat in order to react with itself?

I'll admit, it's been a long time since I've looked at this, but I remember glancing it over, and deciding that you'd need more than just soulcasting to get it to happen. Though it's not outside of reason that a soulcaster could learn to create super-dense plutonium. The problem is one of understanding, however.

Just like it's totally possible that we, with our current technology, could figure out some huge breakthrough in science allowing FTL or other incredible discoveries. But we don't have the understanding to pull it off yet.

In a modern setting, however, a lot of these complaints go out the window. Let's just say that this isn't the only reason a modern society that can instantly transmute one substance to another is potentially a very interesting place.

Phantine

You're totally right that everyone currently uses an 'implosion' style compression design. It's a lot more bang for your buck, and you need less radioactive material to work with. They're also a lot safer, because just sitting around they're well below critical mass - without the power-boosting tricks they basically can't go off.

The old "nobody uses these anymore" designs were 'Gun-Type'. Very simple - shoot a uranium bullet into the center of a uranium ring (or vice versa). Inefficient as heck (the Hiroshima bomb only fissioned 1.4% of its uranium), but also super simple to put together.

Despite being simple to build, gun-types were also super unsafe relative to modern implosion devices (among other worries, dropping a gun-type device into the ocean could potentially set it off because of how neutrons react with water). Also, getting the timing perfect on the fissile 'bullet' was a problem, so practically speaking it could only be done with uranium.

After WWII, the only use the US ever had for gun-types was in bunker busters and nuclear artillery (because of course that was a good idea).

Darn, that post turned out longer than I expected it to.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to see you make something really cool out of a post-scarcity transmutropolis setting (especially since the liespren would be in charge of nuclear treaties), and also my roommate just pointed out all the laying out of nuclear bomb details is pointless if they could just make antimatter instead. D'oh.

Brandon Sanderson

This is useful information for me, but my gut says that Rosharans couldn't get this working with their current tech level. That said, the REAL issue (as you mentioned in your original question) is knowledge, not feasibility. They'd have to know how to make the right kind of Uranium or Plutonium--and would need to be able to get this across to a soulcaster in a way that works, then THEY would need to get this across to spren. Cross that hurdle, and I suppose it's not at all implausible to imagine Alethi during Dalinar's era with nukes. I suspect the right kind of fabrial could make a trigger device to match ring and bullet at the right time. Depends on how quickly it needs to be going, though.

[Karger he/him]

On 5/24/2019 at 7:19 PM, Pathfinder said:

And my point is it was only because the stone had been soulcasted originally. That it was not naturally rock to begin with. So any luck on that quote or WoB?

What kind of WoB do you expect?  We know that familiarity matters when changing one thing to another in forgery.  We know that Rosharans understand transformation in nature to occur via the surge of transformation.  We know that objects in shadesmar "think"  and like being the way they are.  It stands to reason that these objects would prefer to stay somewhat similar to what they were.  Strictly speaking it is a theory but it is based on observation not guesswork.  Rock that used to be air changes more readily back into something like air.  Therefore I reason that rock that used to be vaporous will be more easily converted into a vaporous substance.  I do not think that the method by which the transformation is accomplished to be significant in either case and I am not sure that a Rosharan would realy see a difference either.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

What kind of WoB do you expect?  We know that familiarity matters when changing one thing to another in forgery.  We know that Rosharans understand transformation in nature to occur via the surge of transformation.  We know that objects in shadesmar "think"  and like being the way they are.  It stands to reason that these objects would prefer to stay somewhat similar to what they were.  Strictly speaking it is a theory but it is based on observation not guesswork.  Rock that used to be air changes more readily back into something like air.  Therefore I reason that rock that used to be vaporous will be more easily converted into a vaporous substance.  I do not think that the method by which the transformation is accomplished to be significant in either case and I am not sure that a Rosharan would realy see a difference either.

All I am asking is a quote or WoB that supports what you are stating.

For instance I dont recall reading anywhere that familiarity matters. If you could provide a quote or WoB to show this, I would appreciate it because I would have learned something new.

We know that how people see any object matters to how it views itself. A boat does not see itself as a plank, as shown with the winds pleasure (I believe that is the name) when shallan soulcasts it. There is an example/quote from the book. Wood was trees and trees drink water. Shallan turned the boat to water. Yet no mention of that making things easier. The stone has been seen as stone by people long enough that it sees itself as stone. If the various stages of ecology mattered then stone could be transformed into anything easily. It could be transformed into water because crem is carried in the water before it settled out, so it would see itself as liquid. It would be easily changed into organics because of the bacteria present in it during the high storm. High storms also have lightning in them so fire should be easy too. How about oil? The building blocks of oil is there too. So stone should be the easiest thing to soulcast into anything by that premise. So if that was the case,  I would imagine that would be something jasnah would mention to shallan. I would imagine it would be something mentioned in WoB. So I figured you had examples. Since I dont recall that mentioned anywhere, I am personally inclined to disagree. If you could show me where it is mentioned or shown then I would be happy to change my mind. Otherwise I see no point in continuing. I wish you luck with your theory!

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

For instance I dont recall reading anywhere that familiarity matters. If you could provide a quote or WoB to show this, I would appreciate it because I would have learned something new.

In Rysn's interlude her bebesk mentions that they change the shape of wood and then soulcast them to make tools so similarity is somewhat important in that instance as we know that you can soulcast things to change shape but they choose not to presumably because it is easier. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

In Rysn's interlude her bebesk mentions that they change the shape of wood and then soulcast them to make tools so similarity is somewhat important in that instance as we know that you can soulcast things to change shape but they choose not to presumably because it is easier. 

This is incorrect. Every instance we've seen of the shape being changed is an item that was physically carved or altered prior to being Soulcast. Wood and wax shaped and then soulcast into metal or glass or crystal. 

As far as I'm aware, the only time we've ever seen a shape determine by Soulcasting is from air to stone... Which is less "shaping" and more building on the atomic level which is... Honestly a bit ridiculous. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is incorrect. Every instance we've seen of the shape being changed is an item that was physically carved or altered prior to being Soulcast. Wood and wax shaped and then soulcast into metal or glass or crystal. 

As far as I'm aware, the only time we've ever seen a shape determine by Soulcasting is from air to stone... Which is less "shaping" and more building on the atomic level which is... Honestly a bit ridiculous. 

Point taken.  Why is it that Soulcasting can't alter somethings shape though?

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Point taken.  Why is it that Soulcasting can't alter somethings shape though?

It seems like all that Soulcasting does is alter the composition. In the event that your working with a fluid or gas that means that you can essentially change a bit at a time to build the sharp you want, but with a solid, it has a set form and you change only the composition itself. 

Can't say I know why it's limited in that way, but so far that is what the limitations appear to be. 

[Karger he/him]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It seems like all that Soulcasting does is alter the composition. In the event that your working with a fluid or gas that means that you can essentially change a bit at a time to build the sharp you want, but with a solid, it has a set form and you change only the composition itself. 

Can't say I know why it's limited in that way, but so far that is what the limitations appear to be. 

This does indicate that some kinds of similarity are important.  Shape change is a no.

[Karger he/him]

On 5/26/2019 at 8:18 AM, Pathfinder said:

I wish you luck with your theory!

It is a theory but it is one in the scientific sense not the just a theory sense.  It my attempt to explain phenomena I am witnessing based on evidence and reason.  If I lived on Roshar this would be the stage were we came up with suitable tests.  For example we know from the Stormfather that items remember what they were after changing for a time and eventually die cognitively when they forget who they used to be.  This is an extremely similar description to the one that Kaza gives for how the stone remembers being air before being transformed via soulcasting.  This indicates that no matter how they are changed(soulcasting or natural processes) an object can remember what it was and be more easily changed because of it.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

On 5/26/2019 at 10:13 AM, Karger said:

In Rysn's interlude her bebesk mentions that they change the shape of wood and then soulcast them to make tools so similarity is somewhat important in that instance as we know that you can soulcast things to change shape but they choose not to presumably because it is easier. 

Please provide the page number, and or type out the quote you are referring to. As Calderis pointed out, that is not how that scene played out. 

On 5/26/2019 at 0:43 PM, Karger said:

This does indicate that some kinds of similarity are important.  Shape change is a no.

I do not see how. What about that statement of Calderis says that similarity is important? Please explain it to me. 

10 hours ago, Karger said:

It is a theory but it is one in the scientific sense not the just a theory sense.  It my attempt to explain phenomena I am witnessing based on evidence and reason.  If I lived on Roshar this would be the stage were we came up with suitable tests.  For example we know from the Stormfather that items remember what they were after changing for a time and eventually die cognitively when they forget who they used to be.  This is an extremely similar description to the one that Kaza gives for how the stone remembers being air before being transformed via soulcasting.  This indicates that no matter how they are changed(soulcasting or natural processes) an object can remember what it was and be more easily changed because of it.

By me stating what you wrote is a theory is not meant to be derogatory. Gravity is a theory. It is well substantiated, and tested, but by definition it is a theory. So theory is not a bad word. Now having said that, explaining phenomena with evidence and reason, still does require evidence. I have not seen any from you that causes me to agree with your theory. Please refer to my earlier post regarding Kaza. An individual of great power soulcasted a large amount of air into those stone pillars. Kaza was offering the stone pillars the memory of when they were air prior to that soulcasting. It would be a different matter if that same scene occurred, but those stone pillars were naturally occurring or were build out of natural stone.  But they aren't. They were soulcasted to be rock. I do not see any other soulcasting scene across all three books where it is ever mentioned that stone is easier to soulcast to air. The reason why does not even have to be explicitly stated in the novels or WoB. All that would be required is Jasnah saying "hey Shallan, soulcasting stone to air is especially easy." But she doesn't. She states different ways to approach convincing the material to change, but nothing about a material being easier to change into a particular other material. She also never mentions changing one material to a material "less" like it, is harder. So again I ask, please provide quotes or WoB to where you read this, because if I missed something, I would love to learn something new. Otherwise based on all the information I have read, and all the evidence I have reviewed, I disagree with you. 

Best of luck with your theory and I guess RAFO!

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They were soulcasted to be rock. I do not see any other soulcasting scene across all three books where it is ever mentioned that stone is easier to soulcast to air. The

I don't think the air to rock translation is easy.  I think it might be easier then say rock to spark because rock has little to no experience burning.  Jasnah does recommend coercion and persuasion when trying to convince rock to change and that is my method of going about it(invoking its history as an air like substance to convince it to make the change).

[Pathfinder]

41 minutes ago, Karger said:

I don't think the air to rock translation is easy.  I think it might be easier then say rock to spark because rock has little to no experience burning.  Jasnah does recommend coercion and persuasion when trying to convince rock to change and that is my method of going about it(invoking its history as an air like substance to convince it to make the change).

Can you please write specifically what she says?

[Karger he/him]

47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Can you please write specifically what she says?

During Oathbringer when she lectures Shallan at the Battle of Theylen Field.  "Remember, you mustn't order stones, as they are more stubborn then men.  Use coercion...

Edited May 28, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

During Oathbringer when she lectures Shallan at the Battle of Theylen Field.  "Remember, you mustn't order stones, as they are more stubborn then men.  Use coercion...

Please finish the whole quote. 

[Calderis he/him]

The quote... 

Quote

“Soulcasting is a practiced art,” Jasnah said. “Up, up. Keep walking.” She sliced the steps off as they walked. “Remember, you mustn’t order stones, as they are more stubborn than men. Use coercion. Speak of freedom and of movement. But for a gas becoming a solid, you must impose discipline and will. Each Essence is different, and each offers advantages and disadvantages when used as a substrate for Soulcasting.”

Implies there are advantages and disadvantages to be had through any type of substrate and that they must all be approached and handled differently. 

It does not say anything about the difficulty involved in switched between one type of essence to another. Only the approach needed at the starting point. 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It does not say anything about the difficulty involved in switched between one type of essence to another. Only the approach needed at the starting point. 

No, this is why it is a theory not an observation.  My point was that you need to find a clever way of convincing stone that it can have a better time as something else you can't just use willpower.  I thought of a potential way it could be done.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

No, this is why it is a theory not an observation.

And the evidence you put forward to back your theory, I do not feel lends it to be believable. All I am saying is your theory does not work for me. I feel based on what I have read in the books, your theory does not apply. The next book may show otherwise. So again, Wish you luck with your theory and for myself at least, guess RAFO!