Kelsier, Good Guy/Bad Guy

[+Invocation]

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part.  Kelsier wanted to overthrow the nobility as a political institution not on a racial bases otherwise why is he cool with killing skaa guards?

He wanted to kill every noble until Vin changed his mind. While, yes, that was mostly as a political thing, he still wanted to do it, and the nobles were regarded as a separate class both ethnically and religiously, checking off the box for genocide. He killed the skaa guards because they were traitors and separate from skaa to him (there is a term for that, I think it was quis-something, from some French guy or something).

Edit: Rusts! @Pathfinder ninja'd me.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Invocation

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, Invocation said:

He wanted to kill every noble until Vin changed his mind. While, yes, that was mostly as a political thing, he still wanted to do it, and the nobles were regarded as a separate class both ethnically and religiously, checking off the box for genocide. He killed the skaa guards because they were traitors and separate from skaa to him (there is a term for that, I think it was quis-something, from some French guy or something).

But Vin did change his mind and he never said anything about every noble.  Also in wars between nations and in most rebellions the enemy can be regarded as a separate class religiously or ethnically.  This does not make all wars genocidal.  Kelsier never bothered going after nobles for the crime of being noble so I do not think this qualifies.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part.  Kelsier wanted to overthrow the nobility as a political institution not on a racial bases otherwise why is he cool with killing skaa guards?

Because they work for, and support, the people he hates. It's not a point against his blanket hatred, it's a supporting fact. 

In Kel's own words... 

Quote

“What is this?” Kelsier asked, picking it up.

“The names of the eleven men you slaughtered last night,” Marsh said. “I thought you might at least want to know.”

Kelsier tossed the paper into the crackling hearth. “They served the Final Empire.”

“They were men, Kelsier,” Marsh snapped. “They had lives, families. Several of them were skaa.”

“Traitors.”

“People,” Marsh said. “People who were just trying to do the best with what life gave them.”

“Well, I’m just doing the same thing,” Kelsier said. “And, fortunately, life gave me the ability to push men like them off the tops of buildings. If they want to stand against me like noblemen, then they can die like noblemen.”

In Kel's mind, working for the nobility makes you a traitor and deserving of death. Seems fairly clear. 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Karger said:

But Vin did change his mind and he never said anything about every noble.  Also in wars between nations and in most rebellions the enemy can be regarded as a separate class religiously or ethnically.  This does not make all wars genocidal.  Kelsier never bothered going after nobles for the crime of being noble so I do not think this qualifies.

He does consider it every noble. He and Dockson both. I don't have my book on hand right now, but Calderis's quote sums it up nicely. If you're noble or associated with them, you can die, because you've been born a noble and are associated with the continual enslavement of skaa and the crimes committed by the other nobles, regardless of if you did anything yourself.

[Calderis he/him]

I think the biggest issue here, is that people keep saying that Kel "just wanted to overthrow the final empire" and separating that from the nobility. 

From the things that Kel and Dox, the person closest to him on the entire crew, say throughout the book they make it clear that the nobility is the empire in their minds. The Lord ruler is just the head of the snake. 

Kel may have eventually spared Elend, but he was still pissed when he found out they made a noble king. 

Here's a few quotes from SH

Quote

Kelsier remained standing there, at the edge of his prison, the glowing pool tossing his shadow across the floor. He stared into the misty room with its columns, waiting for something, though he wasn’t certain what. Confirmation, celebration, a change of some sort.

  Nothing. Nobody came, not even the Inquisitors. How had the revolution gone? Were the skaa now rulers of society? He would have liked to see the deaths of the noble ranks, treated—in turn—as they had treated their slaves.

  He received no confirmation, no sign, of what was happening above. They didn’t know about the Well, obviously. All Kelsier could do was settle down.

  And wait.

Quote

The mounting clues worried Kelsier. Armies around Luthadel. A city still in chaos. And—he hated to confront this one—it looked like the Venture boy was king. When Kelsier realized this, he was so angry he spent days away from the pulses.

  They’d gone and put a nobleman in charge.

  Yes, Kelsier had saved this man’s life. Against his better judgment, he’d rescued the man that Vin loved. Out of love for her, perhaps a twisted paternal sense of duty. The Venture boy hadn’t been too bad, compared to the rest of his kind. But to give him the throne? It seemed that even Dox was listening to Venture. Kelsier would have expected Breeze to ride whatever wind came his way, but Dockson?

 

[Karger he/him]

Not wanting a noblemen in charge is not the same as desiring genocide

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not wanting a noblemen in charge is not the same as desiring genocide

May I ask what Kelsier would have had to have said in order for you to consider it genocide?

[Calderis he/him]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not wanting a noblemen in charge is not the same as desiring genocide

"he would have liked to see the deaths of the noble ranks" 

Think that speaks for itself. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger he/him]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

May I ask what Kelsier would have had to have said in order for you to consider it genocide?

Actively killing all nobles not just the ones involved in governance.

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Think that speaks for itself. 

Yes it speeks to the fact that he has endured several decades of misrule and is quite naturally bitter about them.  I imagine that when looking at something like what happened in Spook's city (forgot the name) he would stand against it which he did.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Kelseir was trying to overthrow of regime not necessarily commit genocide.  He considered all members of the regime to be enemy combatants (something I disagree with and most likely is morally reprehensible) but I do not know of any other way the final empire could have been overthrown.

I think you misunderstood. I was saying that if I thought like Kell I’d be killing every German who was an adult during the Holocaust as they all contributed to my people’s persecution either by action or inaction. I don’t think like Kell, and realize that reality is more complicated.

Putting that aside though, the Nobles and Skaa (and probably the Southerners) were  compatible species with common ancestry. Not ethnic groups - species. They were altered on a genetic level. Kell was essentially a liger, to use a terrestrial hybrid. Enough hybrids give us a third (fourth?) species, just like cross breeding dogs can give us a new breed. He wanted to eradicate the nobles as a people, which is genocide.

Vin got him to start seeing them as people, at which point he began to change his perspective. By SH he wants to save all Scadrians. 

Kell isn’t a good person but he wants to be.

[Karger he/him]

34 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell isn’t a good person but he wants to be.

I could agree to this.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Yes it speeks to the fact that he has endured several decades of misrule and is quite naturally bitter about them.  I imagine that when looking at something like what happened in Spook's city (forgot the name) he would stand against it which he did.

It's more than that. 

At this point in the story, all Kelsier knows is that Rashek just died. Which means that his plan has gone through the way he hoped it would. He's expected the revolution to be bloody because he expects the common skaa to feel exactly the same as he does. 

He's not lamenting what he wishes he could have done, he's upset that he isn't able to see what he thinks is happening. 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Vin got him to start seeing them as people, at which point he began to change his perspective. By SH he wants to save all Scadrians. 

I don't think this is accurate. I don't think Kel us over his issues in secret history at all pet the quotes I showed above. There is a difference between wanting to save all scadrians and wanting to save Scadrial.

I think he strives for the latter in SH. 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell isn’t a good person but he wants to be.

This I very much do agree with. Unfortunately, wanting to change is not successfully changing. Many people want to change aspects if their life and personality and continue to slide further down the path they wished to avoid, often unaware of doing so. 

With the tidbits of Southern Scadrian culture that @Pathfinder referenced just a bit ago, I'm not very confident that Kel has succeeded. The culture is hinted to be very much stratified, with the rare metal born treated for more unequally than the nobles were in Era 1.

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

To be fair, I suspect much of that predated Kell’s appearance. Also, Allik does not seem typical of his people; the Captain doesn’t seem to care much about Wax’s metalborn status! The different peoples seem to look at things rather differently; we just don’t know enough to say.

I do think Kell did start seeing nobles as people thanks to Vin; I never said I thought he was perfect at it - or even good! I did get the feeling he wanted to save as many Scadrians as possible, though that might have been simple calculation on his part. But it is a step in the right direction...

Psychopaths cannot be what most of the world would perceive as objectively good; that requires selflessness, which they are not capable of. What they ARE capable of is choosing to do things perceived as good, often because they view it as beneficial to themselves/people they care about. It’s rather interesting, actually.

(It’s not the same as narcissism; narcissists can’t make that sort of choice because whatever they decide is good, because they are good and incapable of doing anything bad - YOU are a horrible person if you think they could be doing something bad. Psychopaths do know the difference between good and bad; they just don’t feel it applies to them.)

[Calderis he/him]

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To be fair, I suspect much of that predated Kell’s appearance.

I don't. Prior to Kel's arrival, it's entirely possible that they weren't even aware that they had metalborn, or that the Metallic Arts existed at all, as their levels are exactly the same as pre-rashek levels.

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also, Allik does not seem typical of his people; the Captain doesn’t seem to care much about Wax’s metalborn status!

Eh. He seems like a bit if an odd duck, but not in this regard. The captain out forward a strong front because she had to... But the crew as a whole was nervous around Wax. 

Quote

Drat. Marasi had been hoping she’d share Allik’s reverence for Waxillium. Indeed, much of the crew seemed nervous about him, but the captain obviously didn’t mean to back down.

As to Kel and the good or bad thing... 

Yes, he wants to be be good at the end if SH... But he's also perfectly willing to experiment with Hemalurgy to get his body back, and that requires deaths in the way they (and we) know how to do it. 

It's also be a long time with Kel seen as an ultimate authority by a lot of people. Worship and power are two things that I find particularly troublesome for his mindset. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I disagree. There were metalborn before Kell showed up; they just didn’t understand what caused them. Imagine: warrior experiences a severe, traumatic event, and returns home with inexplicable abilities. Obviously he must be a minor deity, or the child of one... think about how RL mythologies are formed. At least some things - Herr and Frau; the Jaggermeister - likely existed prior to Kell’s appearance.

In addition, the feeling I got was that the Sovereign was more akin to a King Arthur type figure than a deity. Head of state vs. God figure. There are a LOT of KA parallels and I don’t think it’s accidental. (Leaving, but being said to return one day. Loyal priests vs knights.) That’s a pretty big difference. He also chose to leave, which I think is important.

As for the crew being nervous - other, very similar looking people who are immune to cold, just tortured them. I’d be nervous too; how do I know these ones are really different?

[Pathfinder]

On 4/5/2019 at 5:41 PM, Karger said:

Actively killing all nobles not just the ones involved in governance.

Yes it speeks to the fact that he has endured several decades of misrule and is quite naturally bitter about them.  I imagine that when looking at something like what happened in Spook's city (forgot the name) he would stand against it which he did.

Whether it is understandable from your perspective or not, it does not change the definition of the term. Genocide is the elimination of an ethnic group. Nobles (regardless if it got diluted over time) are seen as a separate ethnic group from the skaa. Kelsier wanted them all dead indiscriminately. Quisling is when an individual betrays their own country of origin, and sides with the ruling power, taking on their traits and attempting to emulate their rulers. Kelsier views anyone who collaborates with the nobles in that light and deems them worthy of death. So feel free to feel how you wish about the character. Feel free to feel Kelsier is justified. But to me that does not change what his plan was. Elend was an exception, not because of anything Elend did or was, but because of Vin. Kelsier regretted not letting Elend die. Just because Kelsier was not as successful as he wished he was in exterminating them all, does not change his view. 

On 4/5/2019 at 6:59 PM, Calderis said:

With the tidbits of Southern Scadrian culture that @Pathfinder referenced just a bit ago, I'm not very confident that Kel has succeeded. The culture is hinted to be very much stratified, with the rare metal born treated for more unequally than the nobles were in Era 1.

 

I am going to add more to this when I respond to kingsdaughter as I pulled up the portion in the book

On 4/7/2019 at 5:12 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To be fair, I suspect much of that predated Kell’s appearance. Also, Allik does not seem typical of his people; the Captain doesn’t seem to care much about Wax’s metalborn status! The different peoples seem to look at things rather differently; we just don’t know enough to say.

I do think Kell did start seeing nobles as people thanks to Vin; I never said I thought he was perfect at it - or even good! I did get the feeling he wanted to save as many Scadrians as possible, though that might have been simple calculation on his part. But it is a step in the right direction...

Psychopaths cannot be what most of the world would perceive as objectively good; that requires selflessness, which they are not capable of. What they ARE capable of is choosing to do things perceived as good, often because they view it as beneficial to themselves/people they care about. It’s rather interesting, actually.

(It’s not the same as narcissism; narcissists can’t make that sort of choice because whatever they decide is good, because they are good and incapable of doing anything bad - YOU are a horrible person if you think they could be doing something bad. Psychopaths do know the difference between good and bad; they just don’t feel it applies to them.)

 

16 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I disagree. There were metalborn before Kell showed up; they just didn’t understand what caused them. Imagine: warrior experiences a severe, traumatic event, and returns home with inexplicable abilities. Obviously he must be a minor deity, or the child of one... think about how RL mythologies are formed. At least some things - Herr and Frau; the Jaggermeister - likely existed prior to Kell’s appearance.

In addition, the feeling I got was that the Sovereign was more akin to a King Arthur type figure than a deity. Head of state vs. God figure. There are a LOT of KA parallels and I don’t think it’s accidental. (Leaving, but being said to return one day. Loyal priests vs knights.) That’s a pretty big difference. He also chose to leave, which I think is important.

As for the crew being nervous - other, very similar looking people who are immune to cold, just tortured them. I’d be nervous too; how do I know these ones are really different?

Actually it did not predate Kell's appearance. I have quoted the entire scene (removing some portions such as discussing horses, and clothing description) with Allik below (bolding what I feel is the pertinent parts and spoilered for length) but in a TLDR manner, Allik says that the sovereign taught them that metalborn were bits of god. He also taught him that he was the most powerful god like being. He instituted the rule that you must use a different honorific each and every time you speak to a metal born (certainly sounds like something Kelsier would do doesn't it?). When Allik disagreed with what Wax was saying, he said how he would of course change his beliefs if it pleased Wax. Even earlier in the scene Allik is worried that just by commanding Wax to do something, that Wax would lodge a coin into his skull killing him. So I think it is very clear from that scene how metalborn were instituted by Kelsier, and how they are treated/viewed in southern society. King Arthur was a supposed to be a benevolent leader. Nothing I read in that scene speaks to me about benevolence except saving them with heating medallions. The leader of Allik's group only acted the way she did towards Wax because she was so fed up. Her people were tortured and killed. She had frostbite, and was now told to go home empty handed. She also realized her people were technologically superior to the northerners. So I think anyone would be out for blood. 

 

Spoiler

 

Bands of Mourning page 315

The strange man in the red mask scrambled through the vehicle and leaned out one of the holes in the walls to look downward. He looked solemn as he saluted the ship below, then bowed his head, whispering something. Finally, he turned to Wax. “You are doing great, O Divine One!” “I’m not going to be able to Push it much higher,” Wax said with a grunt. “The anchor is too far away.” “You shouldn’t need to,” the man said, scrambling past Marasi—he patted her on the shoulder—then fiddling with some controls at the front of the machine. “I’ll need the primer cube, please,” he said, holding out a hand to Wayne. “Huh?” Wayne said, looking away from where he’d been hanging out the other door to look down. A few distant gunshots sounded as soldiers took potshots at the hovering vehicle. “Oh, this?” Wayne took out the Allomantic grenade. “Yah,” the man said, snatching it. “Thanks!” He spun and pressed it against Wax’s arm until—as he was still burning steel to keep them afloat—it started buzzing. The little man turned and snapped the cube into place under the shelf at the front of the ship. The machine shook, and then something started thumping underneath them. A fan? Yes, a very large one, blowing downward, powered by an unseen motor. “You can let go, Great Being of Metals,” the man said, looking back at Wax. “If it suits your divine desires.” Wax eased off on his Push. They immediately started to sink. “Reduce your weight!” the man cried. “I mean, if it is aligned with your magnificent will, O Metabolic One.” “Metabolic?” Wax asked, filling his metalmind and decreasing his weight. The ship stabilized in the air. “Uh,” the masked man said, seating himself at the front, “well, we’re supposed to use a different title each time, yah? I’ve never been very good at this, Your Magnificence. Please don’t launch a coin directly into my skull. I’m not insolent, just stupid.” He pushed a lever forward, and smaller fans began whirring at the ends of the pontoons. “They’re not boats,” MeLaan whispered. “Not this one, not the big one below. They’re flying ships.” “Harmony’s Bands,” Marasi said. She was very pale, holding to her wounded stomach. Flying ships that ran on some kind of Allomancy. Rust and Ruin. Wax felt the world seem to lurch around him. If electricity had changed life so dramatically, what would this do? Wax forced himself to shake out of his stupor and looked to the short masked man. “What’s your name?” Wax said. “Allik Neverfar, Tall One,” the man said. “Wait here a moment then, Allik.” “Whatever you desire, O—” Wax jumped out of the vehicle before he could be praised—or insulted, he couldn’t tell which these were—again...

Allik turned back toward the windshield as she settled down on the stool. “I had assumed,” he said, “that everyone up here in the land of the Sovereign was a barbarian. Nobody wears masks, and what your people did to my crewmates…” He shivered again. This didn’t seem to be the cold. “But then you let me out,” he continued. “And you had one of them with you, a grand Metalborn of the precious arts. So I’m left confused.” “I don’t feel like a barbarian,” Marasi said. “But I doubt all but the most barbarous of people feel like one. I’m sorry about what happened to your friends. They had the misfortune of running across a group of very evil people.” …

Marasi said, glancing back at Waxillium, who had settled into a seat behind her and leaned forward to listen. “Bring guides, or experts, just in case. He’s on his way here, the leader of those who killed your friends.” “Then that is where I must go,” Allik said, sitting up and changing the direction of the ship. “Wilg and I will drop you somewhere, if you demand it, for I’m not about to make that one angry.” He thumbed over his shoulder at Waxillium. “But I’ve got to find my crewmates.” “Who is the Sovereign?” Waxillium asked from behind. Allik winced. “Surely he was not as great as you, Remarkable One.” Waxillium said nothing. “He’s staring at me, isn’t he?” Allik asked softly of Marasi. She nodded. “Eyes like icicles,” Allik said, “drilling into me from behind.” He spoke more loudly. “The Sovereign was our king from three centuries ago. He told us he was your king first. And your god.” “The Lord Ruler?” Waxillium said. “He died.” “Yes,” Allik said. “He told us that too.” “Three hundred years ago,” Waxillium said. “Exactly?” “Three hundred and thirty, Persistent One.” Waxillium shook his head. “That’s after Harmony Ascended. Are you sure about those dates?” “Of course I’m sure,” Allik said. “But if you wish me to revise my beliefs in order to—” “No,” Waxillium said. “Just speak the truth.” Allik sighed, rolling his eyes, an odd expression to see from one in a mask. “Gods,” he whispered to her. “Very temperamental. Anyway, the Sovereign came about ten years after the Ice Death happened, yah? Silly name, but you’ve got to call it something. The land was beautiful and warm, and then it froze.” Marasi glanced toward Waxillium, frowning. He shrugged. “Froze?” she said. “I don’t recall hearing of freezing.” “It’s frozen right now!” Allik said, shivering. “You had it here too, you must have. Over three centuries ago, the Ice Death came.” “The Catacendre?” Waxillium said. “Harmony remade the world. Saved it.” “Froze it,” Allik said, shaking his head. “The land was soft and warm, and now it is harsh and broken and frozen.” “Harmony…” Marasi whispered. “Allik’s from the South, Waxillium. Haven’t you read the old books? The people from the Final Empire never went in that direction. The oceans boiled, supposedly, if you got too close to the equator.” “The people who lived down south adapted,” Waxillium said softly. “No Ashmounts to fill the sky with ash, to cool it…” “So, the world nearly ended,” Allik continued. “And the Sovereign, he came and he saved us. Taught us this.” He gestured toward the armband he wore, with the medallion, then paused. “Well, not this one in particular. This one.” He reached into his desk and took out the other medallion he’d worn, the one he’d taken out of the safe back in the warehouse. He put it on, swapping it for the language one, and sighed in contentment. Marasi watched him, then raised her hand as if to touch his, and he nodded, allowing it. His skin grew warmer even as she sat there. “Heat,” she said, glancing toward Waxillium. “This medallion stores heat. That’s a property of Feruchemy, right?” Waxillium nodded. “The most archetypal. In the ancient days, my Terris ancestors dwelled in the highlands, often traveling through snow-filled mountain passes. The ability to store their heat, then draw upon it, allowed them to survive where nobody else could.” Allik sat, basking in his warmth for a time, before—with obvious reluctance—pulling off his medallion and swapping it quickly for the one that somehow allowed him to speak to them. “Without these,” he said, holding up the first medallion, “we’d be dead. Gone. All five peoples extinct, yah?” Marasi nodded. “And he taught you this? The Sovereign?” “Sure did. Saved us, bless him. Taught us that the Metalborn were pieces of God, each one of them, though we didn’t have any of those at first. He gave us devices, and started the Firemothers and Firefathers, who live to fill these medallions so the rest of us may leave our homes and survive in this too-cold world. After he left, we used his gifts to figure out the rest, like these that make us fly.” “The Lord Ruler,” Marasi said, “seeking redemption for what he did up here by saving the people down there.” “He was dead,” Waxillium said. “The records—” “Have been wrong before,” Marasi said. “It had to be him, Waxillium. And that means the Bands…” Waxillium moved up beside Allik, on the other side. The masked man eyed him, as if made very uncomfortable by his presence. “These,” Waxillium said, plucking the heat-giving medallion off the dash. “You can create these, as you wish?” “If we have the Metalborn to do so, and the Excisors, yes. The Excisors are the gifts the Sovereign made for us.” “So with one of those devices, a Metalborn can create a medallion like this—one for any Allomantic or Feruchemical ability?” “Holy words,” Allik said. “But if anyone can say them, it is you, O Blasphemous One. Yes. Any.” “And did one of you create a medallion that grants all of the powers?” Waxillium asked. Allik laughed. Marasi frowned. “Why laugh?” “You think us gods?” Allik said, shaking his head. “You see that? The one you hold? It is very complicated. It is stored with the ability to give yourself a sliver of holiness.” “Investiture,” Waxillium said. “This inner ring is nicrosil. You tap it, and it grants you Investiture—turning you into a temporary Feruchemist who has the ability to fill a metalmind with weight.” He held up the medallion. “The iron on this is for convenience, right? You can fill it, but so long as you’re tapping the Investiture, you could touch any source of iron and turn it into a metalmind.” “You know much about this, Mysterious One,” Allik said. “You are wise and—” “I learn quickly,” Waxillium said, glancing at Marasi. She nodded for him to continue. This was fascinating … but the Metallic Arts was not one of her areas of expertise. Waxillium had a passion for it though. “What’s this other ring built into the medallion?” “That grants the warmth,” Allik said. “It is a grand combination—two attributes, from separate rings. Took us long to make these work, yah? The one I wear now, also grants two. Weight and Connection. I’ve seen medallions with three. Twice in my life only. Every attempt at four has failed.” “So wear multiple medallions,” Waxillium said. “Strap thirty-two to your body, and have all the abilities.” “I’m sorry, great Wise One,” Allik said. “You are obviously very knowledgeable about this, and know things that none of us would ever think to try. How could we be so foolish as to not realize that we could simply—” “Shut it,” Waxillium growled. Allik flinched. “Doesn’t work?” Waxillium asked. Allik shook his head. “They interfere with each other.” “So to create one with multiple powers…” “You must be very skilled,” Allik said. “More skilled than any who has lived among us. Or…” He chuckled. “Or you’d have to have all the powers, rather than adding yours to the medallion, then passing it to another to have it added to! If that were the case, you’d be a great god indeed. As powerful as the Sovereign.”

 

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

And I don’t consider Allik a trustworthy source. Not to mention, we only know a little about the Malwish and even less about the other Peoples.  It’s too early, and we know too little, to assume.

However, if RL is any guide, old beliefs are subsumed into new ones. So anything Kell told them would be merged with the pre-existing culture and belief system. That’s why I’m wary of saying that he’s directly responsible for anything; he left 200+ years ago, they have 1000 years of beliefs and traditions we know nothing of, and we don’t know anything at all about the other peoples in the south. Determining who is responsible for what is going to take more info. Lost Metal hurry up! (I want it more than Stormlight! More than the Azlatian!)

He didn’t have to teach them that he was the most powerful btw; that was kind of obvious. A handful of weak allomancers (if that!) vs a powerful Fullborn? 

And I'm definitely getting King Arthur vibes. The whole leaving and returning... also the revelation of new beliefs, as Arthur’s story involves the transition from paganism to Christianity in England. Which could give us some hints as well... (Note to self: reread La Morte D’Arthur...)

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And I don’t consider Allik a trustworthy source. Not to mention, we only know a little about the Malwish and even less about the other Peoples.  It’s too early, and we know too little, to assume.

However, if RL is any guide, old beliefs are subsumed into new ones. So anything Kell told them would be merged with the pre-existing culture and belief system. That’s why I’m wary of saying that he’s directly responsible for anything; he left 200+ years ago, they have 1000 years of beliefs and traditions we know nothing of, and we don’t know anything at all about the other peoples in the south. Determining who is responsible for what is going to take more info. Lost Metal hurry up! (I want it more than Stormlight! More than the Azlatian!)

He didn’t have to teach them that he was the most powerful btw; that was kind of obvious. A handful of weak allomancers (if that!) vs a powerful Fullborn? 

And I'm definitely getting King Arthur vibes. The whole leaving and returning... also the revelation of new beliefs, as Arthur’s story involves the transition from paganism to Christianity in England. Which could give us some hints as well... (Note to self: reread La Morte D’Arthur...)

So are to disregard everything an individual in the very culture we are discussing says and thinks? May I ask what it would take for Allik to be considered a trustworthy source to you?

Regarding King Arthur leaving and returning. I believe I posted earlier in this thread, but Kelsier isn't even holding up to the Survivorists beliefs anymore as per Brandon himself. So unless King Arthur said he would return, but then changed his mind and decided he had better things to do, I do not think that legend applies here. 

[That_One_Fangirl]

I think Kell is just a very real person. He doesn't blend into any category. He lives off what knowledge he has. So, while he didn't know everything about Ruin VS. Preservation and such pressing matters, he knew the people were oppressed and hurt...and angry. He like using emotional allomancy more, so he used that to his advantage. Showing people and helping people see what the could become if the worked together and combined their strengths, which is no different then other rallying cries and inspirational speakers. 

And okay, I admit he was very eccentric in some things (but who isn't?) and he had a habit of pressing people forward. He did have a lot of ambition, but in the end, it turned out that is exactly what Scadrial needed to finally get that prophecy going (GO Sazed!). 

So I feel like he was just a man who saw a problem and decided to try and fix it. Because he saw no one else was, so why not he? 

Personally, I feel Kelsier is a very relatable and real character because he expresses no apparent devotion to either side in particular. He was ambitious and it turned out that was what Scadrial needed, ambition. 

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, That_One_Fangirl said:

I think Kell is just a very real person. He doesn't blend into any category. He lives off what knowledge he has. So, while he didn't know everything about Ruin VS. Preservation and such pressing matters, he knew the people were oppressed and hurt...and angry. He like using emotional allomancy more, so he used that to his advantage. Showing people and helping people see what the could become if the worked together and combined their strengths, which is no different then other rallying cries and inspirational speakers. 

And okay, I admit he was very eccentric in some things (but who isn't?) and he had a habit of pressing people forward. He did have a lot of ambition, but in the end, it turned out that is exactly what Scadrial needed to finally get that prophecy going (GO Sazed!). 

So I feel like he was just a man who saw a problem and decided to try and fix it. Because he saw no one else was, so why not he? 

Personally, I feel Kelsier is a very relatable and real character because he expresses no apparent devotion to either side in particular. He was ambitious and it turned out that was what Scadrial needed, ambition. 

Kelsier used emotional allomancy to instigate one of the people who signed up with the rebellion to fight. He then used steel to try and push Demoux to kill the man. So yes Kelsier does push people, but not always with the aim of bringing the best out in them. 

[Elegy he/him]

Quote

Allik says that the sovereign taught them that metalborn were bits of god. He also taught him that he was the most powerful god like being. He instituted the rule that you must use a different honorific each and every time you speak to a metal born (certainly sounds like something Kelsier would do doesn't it?). When Allik disagreed with what Wax was saying, he said how he would of course change his beliefs if it pleased Wax. 

I mean, as reckless as it is and as much of a perfect argument for him being a bad guy it is, I find it absolutely hilarious. It's so Kelsier. He just couldn't let that opportunity slip.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So are to disregard everything an individual in the very culture we are discussing says and thinks? May I ask what it would take for Allik to be considered a trustworthy source to you?

Regarding King Arthur leaving and returning. I believe I posted earlier in this thread, but Kelsier isn't even holding up to the Survivorists beliefs anymore as per Brandon himself. So unless King Arthur said he would return, but then changed his mind and decided he had better things to do, I do not think that legend applies here. 

Because Allik seems rather confused or vague about some things, and he doesn’t strike me as the greatest history student? He’s also only one person, and the only other member of the Malwish we really speak with acts very differently. Not to mention that he was clearly fudging in some places, agreeing to statements instead of admitting he didn’t know, and wanted to impress Marasi? And he clearly knows next to nothing of the other Peoples.

I think Southern beliefs regarding the Sovereign share similarities with our King Arthur mythos; I don’t think Kell’s actions are related at all, anymore than they are related to the Survivorists Christian-like beliefs. 

If you look at RL, as the beliefs of the culture adapt to new beliefs and knowledge it is filtered through the lens of the old. We need to know what the South believed before Kell showed up to understand how they have come to believe what they do now.

Another thing to consider: How often do things get attributed to the wrong people? Or someone important puts a new spin on an old thought and suddenly it’s ‘radical’ and ‘profound’? Allik does not strike me as the sort to check primary sources. He seems more like your average Joe, who knows what ‘everyone knows’ which may or may not actually be accurate.

I like mythology. Do you know how many Christian saints used to be pagan deities? St. Nicholas’ attributed stories can be half a dozen different ones. This is how beliefs change. And the ‘wise, foereign leader’ is certainly an archetype. So I’m not ready to jump to ‘Kell did this; Kell said that’ without more than the word of one average Joe. 

I’m not saying your wrong; I’m saying I need more info. I mean, would you trust Wayne’s knowledge of the Final Empire? What about Wax? Marasi? They’ve all shown significant gaps - even MeLaan, who was actually there! Honestly, I’d trust Steris above all of them - I know she’d do the research first!

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Because Allik seems rather confused or vague about some things, and he doesn’t strike me as the greatest history student? He’s also only one person, and the only other member of the Malwish we really speak with acts very differently. Not to mention that he was clearly fudging in some places, agreeing to statements instead of admitting he didn’t know, and wanted to impress Marasi? And he clearly knows next to nothing of the other Peoples.

I think Southern beliefs regarding the Sovereign share similarities with our King Arthur mythos; I don’t think Kell’s actions are related at all, anymore than they are related to the Survivorists Christian-like beliefs. 

If you look at RL, as the beliefs of the culture adapt to new beliefs and knowledge it is filtered through the lens of the old. We need to know what the South believed before Kell showed up to understand how they have come to believe what they do now.

Another thing to consider: How often do things get attributed to the wrong people? Or someone important puts a new spin on an old thought and suddenly it’s ‘radical’ and ‘profound’? Allik does not strike me as the sort to check primary sources. He seems more like your average Joe, who knows what ‘everyone knows’ which may or may not actually be accurate.

I like mythology. Do you know how many Christian saints used to be pagan deities? St. Nicholas’ attributed stories can be half a dozen different ones. This is how beliefs change. And the ‘wise, foereign leader’ is certainly an archetype. So I’m not ready to jump to ‘Kell did this; Kell said that’ without more than the word of one average Joe. 

I’m not saying your wrong; I’m saying I need more info. I mean, would you trust Wayne’s knowledge of the Final Empire? What about Wax? Marasi? They’ve all shown significant gaps - even MeLaan, who was actually there! Honestly, I’d trust Steris above all of them - I know she’d do the research first!

That is why I asked what would it take for you to consider Allik a trusted source?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Oh, I misunderstood. Secondary corroboration, or WoB confirming his knowledge of these things. Considering that even Khriss, who is an actual researcher, can’t be trusted to get it right all the time (though she falls into the ‘assume she’s accurate until new information shows’ category) I’m certainly not going to trust the unsubstantiated opinion of average Joe Allik.

It wouldn’t be the first time Brandon has fooled us by allowing characters to give us wrong info. Or for characters to misunderstand or misrepresent what they know. We don’t even get Allik’s viewpoint! 

So, I’m not willing to assume until I know we aren’t being mislead. That that entire sequence was intended to mislead the characters (not necessarily for the readers; that was the point at which it became obvious who the Sovereign was for me) which makes it even more suspect. Brandon has been very cagey about the Southern culture; I doubt we know as much as we are lead to believe.

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Oh, I misunderstood. Secondary corroboration, or WoB confirming his knowledge of these things. Considering that even Khriss, who is an actual researcher, can’t be trusted to get it right all the time (though she falls into the ‘assume she’s accurate until new information shows’ category) I’m certainly not going to trust the unsubstantiated opinion of average Joe Allik.

It wouldn’t be the first time Brandon has fooled us by allowing characters to give us wrong info. Or for characters to misunderstand or misrepresent what they know. We don’t even get Allik’s viewpoint! 

So, I’m not willing to assume until I know we aren’t being mislead. That that entire sequence was intended to mislead the characters (not necessarily for the readers; that was the point at which it became obvious who the Sovereign was for me) which makes it even more suspect. Brandon has been very cagey about the Southern culture; I doubt we know as much as we are lead to believe.

So if I presented a WoB that proved Kelsier was the cause of Allik's society and how it functioned as we were introduced to it in Bands of Mourning (and thereby verifying what Allik said), would it change your views on Kelsier?