Chrono she/her Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 First, the text in the previous Kaladin Shallan chapters marks Kaladin as an excellent Shallan BS detector. For some reason, this made me laugh so hard. I could just picture Kaladin holding a BS detector and when Shallan makes a joke, it makes a ding sound. Cue more snarking.
Rybal Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 At the end of the day, I think it would be interesting to have a main character of an extended series that did NOT end up in a romantic relationship.
king of nowhere Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Well sure, but I don't see how that situation applies to the discussion at hand, or supports your argument. I would highly suggest you go read the pre-plains marching scene again. Regardless of whether your described situation is more common than my described situation or vice versa, it doesn't change the text of what is going on in the book. There is no scene in the book where Kaladin realizes Shallan isn't right for him (unless you can provide me with one?). Instead, the closest thing we have is a scene where he is standing upon a rock among his bridgemen watching her pass, and hoping hoping hoping that she looks his way, to recognize and acknowledge him they way he seems to be doing with her, and when she doesn't, he pouts a little bit, gets mopey, and then tells himself he's being foolish and perhaps things are better the way they are. That's not the thought process of someone who has realized a girl doesn't fit him, that is the thought process of someone who has decided he'd rather not deal with feelings of rejection at the time, so he'll tuck it far away where it can't bother him. Perhaps if Brandon had only written "The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit." I would be more inclined to agree with you. But that is not the end of it. Brandon added one more sentence, in its own paragraph after: "Perhaps Kaladin could hate that.". You see, that one sentence changes the entire tone of of Kaladin's thought process from "oh, but they are so good together, good for them" to "yeah, they may be good together, but I'm not happy about it." Kaladin may try to fool himself into thinking she doesn't fit him, but he certainly doesn't believe it. To add another argument against the idea that Kaladin has decided "Well, she doesn't really fit me, so I've let her go already" is that he also spends more time after the aforementioned scene thinking, positively I might add, about her. Here he is, depressed, fighting his SAD (Seasonal Affect Disorder) in the riddens, and the only thing that makes him smile is thoughts of Shallan. Come on, this dude is so obviously lovesick. It's all tucked into these pages! At the very least, I'm confident saying that Kaladin has not yet dismissed Shallan as not being right for him. Maybe he'll come to that point in a future book, but he is certainly not there yet. There is no textual evidence to support that. To state that Kaladin has done something which we know he hasn't is a little disingenuous at this point. I don't have the book with me, so i can't go for counterquotes, but you're probably right. I'm probably being influenced by how myself would react to shallan. In particular about the "being dreamy" part you describe, much of that (welll, except some of the more lovesick parts) is how react to girls I'm specially fond of. there's 7-8 of them at the moment, so I doubt I have a crush on all of them. Plus, I react the same way to cats and children. I'm just a very warm person, once my protective instincs get properly triggered. And sometimes I forget most people are not like me. Anyway, if kaladin has a crush on shalllan, I'd go back to my first argument, that it is caused more by their circumstances in the chasm than by real affinity between them, that shallan fits much better with adolin, and if shalladin comes to being it won't be an happy couple and won't last long.
traceria she/her Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 My silly work computer won't let me do quotes or anything, but this is in response to the back-and-forth between king of nowhere and DeployParachute regarding Kalidan as love-struck/resigned to give way to Adolin or having a temporary crush on Shallan. Don't let me put words in your mouth, king of nowhere, but when you mentioned the scenario of meeting a girl but eventually deciding she wasn't for you, I took that purely to mean it was POSSIBLE that this is what is happening with Kalidan. At this point, IF that's what is going on, it's not complete yet. I think it very likely that Kalidan is at precisely that point in his feelings that he is figuratively standing at a fork in the road: One path leads toward holding a torch for Shallan (and stepping back to let his buddy Adolin have dibs) for the long run and another path that ends with him deciding Shallan is not the girl for him. It's too early to tell which way he'll go, but it's safe to say he's attracted at this point whether he decides to pine for her or let it go in the long run.
DeployParachute Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 I don't have the book with me, so i can't go for counterquotes, but you're probably right. I'm probably being influenced by how myself would react to shallan. In particular about the "being dreamy" part you describe, much of that (welll, except some of the more lovesick parts) is how react to girls I'm specially fond of. there's 7-8 of them at the moment, so I doubt I have a crush on all of them. Plus, I react the same way to cats and children. I'm just a very warm person, once my protective instincs get properly triggered. And sometimes I forget most people are not like me. Anyway, if kaladin has a crush on shalllan, I'd go back to my first argument, that it is caused more by their circumstances in the chasm than by real affinity between them, that shallan fits much better with adolin, and if shalladin comes to being it won't be an happy couple and won't last long. Hey, I absolutely understand. Much of the fun in reading, at least for me, is discovering those moments in the book where I can see myself and my own feelings (be they past or present) mirrored within those of the character(s) on the page. We are going to have an initial interpretation of what we read that is influenced by our own experiences. Then, the fun of the reread comes in, where some of my own perceptions change, especially after I've had a chance to visit such a good community forum where many people have opened up various scenes to different interpretations. Sometimes, I'll think to myself "wow, of course how did I not read it this way before?". Other times, I'll think "hmm, interesting thought, but I still read it this way and I can't seem to shake that at the moment". Also, sometimes I like to poke holes in my own interpretations and theories, and I'm going to do so now in favor of your argument. I can't really say for certain that the feelings Kaladin continues to experience after the chasm aren't some form of idealized crush he has for her. The reason I say this is we simply don't have much interaction between the two of them after those chapters, and it is how they behave around each other moving forward and the future interactions that they are going to have that will tell us if what these two are feeling really was only circumstantial, once we removed them from the situation, or if they continue to linger/develop/grow. My silly work computer won't let me do quotes or anything, but this is in response to the back-and-forth between king of nowhere and DeployParachute regarding Kalidan as love-struck/resigned to give way to Adolin or having a temporary crush on Shallan. Don't let me put words in your mouth, king of nowhere, but when you mentioned the scenario of meeting a girl but eventually deciding she wasn't for you, I took that purely to mean it was POSSIBLE that this is what is happening with Kalidan. At this point, IF that's what is going on, it's not complete yet. I think it very likely that Kalidan is at precisely that point in his feelings that he is figuratively standing at a fork in the road: One path leads toward holding a torch for Shallan (and stepping back to let his buddy Adolin have dibs) for the long run and another path that ends with him deciding Shallan is not the girl for him. It's too early to tell which way he'll go, but it's safe to say he's attracted at this point whether he decides to pine for her or let it go in the long run. Hey, thanks for chiming in. I like your fork analogy, so I'm going to expand upon it, if you don't mind. The cool thing about forked roads is that there is always the possibility of another fork further up the path that can lead back to another. I kind of see Kaladin as having already chosen to step back and let Adolin have dibs, but this doesn't necessarily mean that another choice can't face him along this very same path. That choice could include that option for deciding Shallan is wrong for him, continuing to hold that torch but stepping aside, or even perhaps pursuing his feelings for her. If Sanderson writes it well, this progression of Kaladin's feelings will feel natural, a result of consequences and character development, and hopefully tucked into the background where it doesn't distract from the main plot.
Kogiopsis she/her Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 ...stepping back to let his buddy Adolin have dibs... I get that this is just a turn of phrase, but could we not refer to Shallan like she has no agency in this? Talking about having 'dibs' on a person like she's the last slice of cheese pizza is weird and unpleasant. :/ 8
traceria she/her Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I get that this is just a turn of phrase, but could we not refer to Shallan like she has no agency in this? Talking about having 'dibs' on a person like she's the last slice of cheese pizza is weird and unpleasant. :/ Sorry...didn't realize that phrasing was going to grate on anyone. I'm female, by the way, and would certainly not take it well if someone laid claim to me without my consent. Let me just be clear that treating Shallan that way was the FARTHEST thing from my actual intention. 4
king of nowhere Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 I get that this is just a turn of phrase, but could we not refer to Shallan like she has no agency in this? Talking about having 'dibs' on a person like she's the last slice of cheese pizza is weird and unpleasant. :/ it's just a figure of speech. it simply means that kaladin will let adolin approach first, and will eventually try himself only if adolin fails. but "letting adolin have dibs" is shorter and easier to say. it sounds better. it is better at conveying the idea. We all know that shallan will have the last say over who will get her (note that the "get her" may suggest someone becoming the owner of shallan, but again, it's just a figure of speech), or if she prefers to remain single, or if she want to form an open marriage and propose adolin that they go to a swinger club (I'd like to see that just to see how adolin would react ). So it's like shallan is the slice of pizza, but someone must ask her permission to eat her first. or she may even decide to ask someone to eat her. basically, there's no reason to get offended over a metaphora. It's like when someone say "I'm so hungry I'd eat a whole cow", no one replies "that would give you fatal indigestion problems; I recommend at least removing the bones", because everyone understands that it's a metaphora. In the same way, when someone mentions "calling dibs" on a girl, no one should reply "the girl has a say in it" cause everyone should take that for granted. YEs, I know that in the world there are unfortunately still backward people thinking that the girl don't have any say, but I take for granted that none of the people I speak with will be one of those; if I suspected otherwise, I would change my acquaintances immediately. Sorry for the rant, I am a strong advocate of making colorful speeches as opposed to political correctness. I believe if someone make a statement that is open to interpretations, use the best interpretation until proven otherwise. I believe that my interlocutors are enlightened people until proven otherwise, and I expect the same courtesy. 6
Kogiopsis she/her Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 ...I believe that my interlocutors are enlightened people until proven otherwise, and I expect the same courtesy. The only one here who didn't assume I understood what the phrase meant was you. I'm a bit surprised that, with Traceria's mature, polite, and respectful response right above yours, you weren't able to meet the same standards of courtesy as she. Perhaps reread it and take guidance therefrom? 3
Seloun Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 I get that this is just a turn of phrase, but could we not refer to Shallan like she has no agency in this? Talking about having 'dibs' on a person like she's the last slice of cheese pizza is weird and unpleasant. :/ The only one here who didn't assume I understood what the phrase meant was you. I'm a bit surprised that, with Traceria's mature, polite, and respectful response right above yours, you weren't able to meet the same standards of courtesy as she. Perhaps reread it and take guidance therefrom? The phrasing, especially in context, does not suggest that Shallan is not an independent agent, merely that Kaladin is able to unilaterally decide that he will not pursue a relationship with Shallan. Mentioning that Kaladin may choose to do so without conferring with Shallan and choosing to do so due to Adolin's relationship with Shallan does not denigrate Shallan's ability to choose. 3
leinton Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 People continually describe what Kogi just said as being "politically correct" but really, making sure that people have agency is actually just being polite and accepting. Women are people. They aren't pieces of meat. That's not just "politically correct". That's being a decent human being. 5
Kogiopsis she/her Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 The phrasing, especially in context, does not suggest that Shallan is not an independent agent, merely that Kaladin is able to unilaterally decide that he will not pursue a relationship with Shallan. Mentioning that Kaladin may choose to do so without conferring with Shallan and choosing to do so due to Adolin's relationship with Shallan does not denigrate Shallan's ability to choose. You know, sometimes UrbanDictionary is a powerful resource - if, for instance, you want to look up a colloquial phrase to see how it's commonly interpreted. Like 'dibs'. The first few definitions, to save you the trouble of clicking the link, are: "to claim", "to call possession", "to express priority over an object" (emphasis mine), and "to have the rights to something, to own something." So - yes, actually, it suggests that she's an object and that she's something to be possessed by someone else. Moreover, it prioritizes Kaladin and Adolin negotiating who gets a shot with Shallan over the fact that she might - and does - have a preference herself. I'm not sure why you're defending this, since the person who originally used it had no problems with my request. If it's such a small phrase that I shouldn't be bothered by it, why is it so valuable to you? 5
Seloun Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 You know, sometimes UrbanDictionary is a powerful resource - if, for instance, you want to look up a colloquial phrase to see how it's commonly interpreted. Like 'dibs'. The first few definitions, to save you the trouble of clicking the link, are: "to claim", "to call possession", "to express priority over an object" (emphasis mine), and "to have the rights to something, to own something." So - yes, actually, it suggests that she's an object and that she's something to be possessed by someone else. Moreover, it prioritizes Kaladin and Adolin negotiating who gets a shot with Shallan over the fact that she might - and does - have a preference herself. The original poster's reply is in fact indicative that the usage was not in reference to Kaladin claiming ownership or possession of Shallan. Specifically, the object of 'dibs' is pretty readily understood not to be 'Shallan', but the 'priority on courting Shallan'. Further, It only 'prioritizes Kaladin and Adolin negotiating who gets a shot with Shallan' when taken by itself out of context. The context is specifically about Kaladin's decisions: I kind of see Kaladin as having already chosen to step back and let Adolin have dibs, but this doesn't necessarily mean that another choice can't face him along this very same path. That choice could include that option for deciding Shallan is wrong for him, continuing to hold that torch but stepping aside, or even perhaps pursuing his feelings for her. It's unsurprising that in the context of discussing what choice Kaladin will make, the choices Shallan might make is not directly considered. I'm not sure why you're defending this, since the person who originally used it had no problems with my request. If it's such a small phrase that I shouldn't be bothered by it, why is it so valuable to you? Because the initial post was a pointless digression off the topic (I admit to the irony). That alone wouldn't have necessitated a response, but the reply to king of nowhere's post (mistaken or otherwise, his intent seems honest) was incredibly condescending and ad hominem: The only one here who didn't assume I understood what the phrase meant was you. I'm a bit surprised that, with Traceria's mature, polite, and respectful response right above yours, you weren't able to meet the same standards of courtesy as she. Perhaps reread it and take guidance therefrom? 3
Kogiopsis she/her Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Because the initial post was a pointless digression off the topic (I admit to the irony). That alone wouldn't have necessitated a response, but the reply to king of nowhere's post (mistaken or otherwise, his intent seems honest) was incredibly condescending and ad hominem: Actually, we didn't digress until king of nowhere's post, the way I see it - I made a request, was politely answered, assumed the matter was done with and we could move on. Then I got patronizingly lectured, to which I objected. Condescension for condescension; or does a two-paragraph explanation of what a metaphor is not strike you as condescending? (I also have a problem on principle with anyone who uses 'political correctness' as a derogatory term, since it's basically a euphemism for 'being respectful to others', but I know I'm not going to win that fight here.) Edit: hang on, making people feel more comfortable in a discussion is 'pointless'? Edited June 7, 2014 by Kogiopsis 5
Seloun Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Actually, we didn't digress until king of nowhere's post, the way I see it - I made a request, was politely answered, assumed the matter was done with and we could move on. Then I got patronizingly lectured, to which I objected. Condescension for condescension; or does a two-paragraph explanation of what a metaphor is not strike you as condescending? The post being a digression is essentially a factual statement by the definition of 'digression'; I'll concede that 'pointless' is a value judgement and open to interpretation. Given that your original post regarding the phrase 'dibs' seems to have associated an interpretation unintended by the author, I don't think it's unreasonable that someone else might have misunderstood what the issue was. Regardless, the reply to the mistaken 'helpful' post seems rather extreme. In particular, 'condescension for condescension', especially an escalating strategy, does not seem like a good policy. Going back to the original point of this sub-(sub-)thread, I'm not sure that people reading the original post about 'dibs' were more inclined to think of Shallan in an objectifying manner, since I think for most the intent of the passage as clear (and not about removing from consideration the possibility of Shallan being an independent actor). I'll concede that I don't have any data on that topic besides the existing posts and my interpretation (so, sample size of 3 or 4) but I'm not sure anyone else was interpreting the phase in the manner you were. 3
king of nowhere Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) The only one here who didn't assume I understood what the phrase meant was you. I'm a bit surprised that, with Traceria's mature, polite, and respectful response right above yours, you weren't able to meet the same standards of courtesy as she. Perhaps reread it and take guidance therefrom? Well, my intention wasn't being condescending, or disrespectful, and I still don't perceive my post as such upon rereading it. On the other hand, I felt offended by your initial statement, when you said that we were talking of shallan as if she didn't have a say in the matter. To me, it was clear that we weren't. I felt like you pointed to me (and a few others) and called me a horribly sexist person. All for a phrase that to me had a perfectly normal meaning but you were reading in a different way. I specifically added the part about backwards people to say "yes, if you heard some lowlife thugs or convicted rapists talk that way, they probably mean it in that sense, and you would have good reasons to take offence from it; do you want to imply that we are such people?". As I said, I don't like when people interpret what I say in the worst manner and use it against me. Especially for sexism. All my friends agree that I'm caring and helpful, so being implied a sexist is a bit of a berserker button for me. so I felt the need to explain - in detail - why it wasn't a sexist remark and wasn't to be read as such. I knew I'd be most likely downvoted for it, but I felt I had to say it neverheless. Now, I'm realizing as I write this that I'm guilty of the same misbehaviour I attributed to you: take your statement in the worst possible way (i.e. reading a complain about a turn of phrase you didn't like as an accusation of sexism) and get offended by it. For this I apologize. I apologize also for derailing the thread, it wasn't my intention (EDIT: that was actually sheer stupidity on my part. I fully expected that my post would be followed by one or two clarification of intent, and nothing more. Should have realized that people feel strongly about anything regarding sexism and would want to add their voice. The only excuse I can make is that it was 4 am in my timeline when i posted and my capability to predict the outcome of my actions wasn't at its best). I will say no more about the subject, to avoid further derailment. Edited June 7, 2014 by king of nowhere 2
Kogiopsis she/her Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Apology acknowledged; and in the interest of getting the thread back on track, I'm willing to drop the issue, since we're going in circles and each one gets more disrespectful than the last. I'd be happy to discuss sexism with either of you in private messages, if you want to know in more detail what happened here or get a working academic definition of the term. 5
DeployParachute Posted June 9, 2014 Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Apology acknowledged; and in the interest of getting the thread back on track, I'm willing to drop the issue, since we're going in circles and each one gets more disrespectful than the last. I'd be happy to discuss sexism with either of you in private messages, if you want to know in more detail what happened here or get a working academic definition of the term. Oh, how very magnanimous of you. You make what is sure to amount to an incendiary post concerning a turn of phrase that you decided to take issue with; without the slightest consideration the intent of the original poster or the context in which it was used. The original poster comes in with an apology that she shouldn't have had to give, and you accept it because it doesn't challenge your opinions on the matter. Then, as soon as other people post well reasoned arguments about why it was still a valid use of the phrase : The first few definitions, to save you the trouble of clicking the link, are: "to claim", "to call possession", "to express priority over an object" (emphasis mine), and "to have the rights to something, to own something." Specifically, the object of 'dibs' is pretty readily understood not to be 'Shallan', but the 'priority on courting Shallan'. ...you fault them for disagreeing with you in the first place, and ask why they still have a problem with your statement now that the original poster acquiesced to your demand. They have every reason to point out your mistaken interpretation of the original poster's phrasing. And then, to cap all of this off, you post what I assume you wanted to be your "final word", where you acknowledge an apology as being unworthy of your acceptance (Apology Acknowledged), then underhandedly hint that those who disagreed with you are sexist (I'd be happy to discuss sexism with either of you in private), and that you are the sole possessor of the correct interpretation of what really happened here (if you want to know in more detail what happened here), and then cut out like the matter is settled and that's all there is to it. Well sorry, I don't need to have a personal message exchange with you to understand what happened here, but you certainly can have my downvote Edited June 9, 2014 by DeployParachute 6
MadMartigan Posted June 9, 2014 Posted June 9, 2014 I've always thought a pairing between Shallan and Kaladin wouldn't work because Shallan gains nothing from him. Whereas Adolin is related to the king and is heir to a huge Highprince province/kingdom?. Also I find most love triangles to be boring and unnecessary. That's just my opinion, obviously. Though if Brandon decided to go down that path he would be one of the few authors to manage it in a believable way. So you want the typical trope of "dude #1 has more money, so he has more to offer by default?" Heavens pray I never date a soul sucking gold digger like that.
Gabriele she/her Posted June 9, 2014 Posted June 9, 2014 Well, in most historical cultures and in several cultures event today, marriage is about status and money, not about love. So it's understandable to assume Shallan may think along those lines (the Alethi culture surely is very status oriented). Navani may have been guided by such principles in chosing the king over Dalinar, though I admit her fearing Dalinar's passion played a role, too. Yeah, it would be nice if Shallan choses for love, but I won't hold it against her if she acted according to her society.
MadMartigan Posted June 9, 2014 Posted June 9, 2014 It's not that I don't like it, per se, but it would feel like another "people from different social classes fall in love" trope that is the subject of pretty much every romantic movie/novel (I'm looking at you, Nicholas Sparks). I think it would be refreshing to see something a bit different like Shallan and Adolin together with no major twists. That said, I wouldn't be overly upset if Kaladin and Shallan wound up together. Another? People from different social classes and ethnic backgrounds fall in love with each other all the time. How is that any more of a trope than penniless (yes, penniless, despite being a lighteyes) woman falls for hunky, dashing knight in shining armor with a big a darkness swirling around him? I think people confuse tropes and use them as excusable reasons why they don't like a particular pairing. Doesn't make much sense. I like Shallan far too much to wish Kaladin on her romantically. Despite my personal hang-ups with Kaladin post-WoR (which are irrelevant), think of it this way: Shallan is Tien, and Kaladin is Heleran. Why do people always force a "brother/sister" relationship on the relationship they don't care for? The brother/sister thing is as much of a trope as the other tropes used to describe Kal/Shal. I think this love triangle is going to be more like AoL than traditional like say twilight. Even if romance isn't B.S's strong suit, I think we can give him enough benefit of the doubt to write it better than Stephanie "puke-fest" Myers. Because that's too easy. What's easier than arranged marriage of penniless, broken family hotty bumping uglies with dream boat swordmaster? I think shipping clouds people judgements when describing what's "easy". There's nothing currently easy about a Kal/Shal relationship working, especially now, especially as Radiants. I absolutely love them together too I love how Shallan is the one who seems to be driving the relationship and not Adolin has one would have expected. Well, she drove it, because until she learned of her family situation, there was always going to be that niggling at the back of her mind that the relationship HAS to work, for her family. She explains this countless times in the lead-up to meeting Adolin. No, it isn't quite so shallow nowadays, but still has that feelings. he's a man in his mid twenties, Last I checked, Kal was 19-20. When did he suddenly gain 5 years of life? Does stormlight give dudes the dreamy salt and pepper look? Sorry. Couldn't help that. Shallan choosing not what was "safe" like Navani did, but instead following her heart. Adolin, as he currently is, is safe. Shallan can predict her feelings towards him, manage them according to her expectations. With Kaladin, she cannot, and it both scares and excites her. Word. Adolin is by far the safe choice. The choice that already exists. All she needs to do is continue walking forward with him. No drama there. Kaladin is the unknown. And what few thoughts she'd had on him, have all been pretty complex for a guy she "hardly knows" as opposed to the betrothed should know more about. Does she feel so committed to the idea of a betrothal to Adolin that she can't even contemplate choosing something different for herself (like being single even)? I do find it strange for a girl so sheltered and used to having all of her decisions being made for her, fights so hard for a relationship Jasnah all but put on her because of her abilities. Seems rather strange. I wonder if you take out any supposed arranged marriage with Adolin, and she just met Kal, and then Adolin, how her emotions regarding the two would be. I honestly think she's still coming into her own as finally making decisions for herself. Adolin is one of the last ties to something someone else suggested/wanted for her. Because, in the chasm, she had nothing to lose by sharing with Kaladin and she has everything to lose by sharing with Adolin. Adolin is a prince, how will he react to her trouble past? Fear of her betrothed not accepting her and her reasons? I don't think that's the argument you want to use to prop up Shallan/Adolin. Hammers home the lack of trust and understanding thus far in that relationship. Might one to try something else. I absolutely, vehemently disagree that Shallan is powerfully convinced that they will survive the chasm. To each his/her own. Convinced? You may have a point. Though after what she learned, I learn she was powerfully DETERMINED to live in order to get the information she gained to Dalinar. Besides, even now she is a Radiant, she clearly still wants a relationship with him. I don't see any 100% proof of anything other than finding no reason to give up what she already has. She's doubly in a position of power as Radiant and as betrothed to Adolin. And honestly, you could even say that Adolin is the rebound from Kabsal. Kaladin is looking for someone he can protect and Shallan is looking for someone to provide stability and emotional support Not protection. Errr......What proof of this do you have or are you pulling it out of the hat? Kaladin has had several people to protect and even succeeded at it. Ultimately, I think what he really was, and most certainly what Syl wants, is someone to make him happy. To get him smiling again. Despite his damndest not to, Shallan gets him smiling. Others have already gone over this, but just thinking about her in the last 90ish pages helps turn his sour mood. Going to have to disagree with you here. I cannot recall the exact passages, but there were 2 occassions where Pattern declares she "cracked" where others would have completely broken. She is fractured and damaged but not broken in the way she believes. At least, that's how I interpreted it. Shallan's problem is self-deprecation. She thinks she's really fragile and pretends she isn't because she believes she is. If that makes sense. She's far stronger than she actually thinks she is. Mask or no mask, the fact that she's able to push aside her deficiencies and pain is strength on its own. A different kind, but strength no less. Kaladin recognizes this and highly respects it. I think Kaladin would be great in Shallan's developing confidence in herself. I honestly think with Kaladin, Shallan would be more likely to face her darkness than say, with Adolin. Kaladin has already affirmed that, if only in his head. Point is, if you view yourself as weak and unable to cope, you'll always be weak and unable to cope. And regardless of whether she has to block out the pain to cope, that's still a strength. A single minded focus to put aside your pain for more important things. Is it healthy? No. But the dynamic of coping mechanisms, strength, duty, honor, love, truth, and lies between Kaladin and Shallan, and how they are the two sides of a broken coin, is definitely interesting, which is partly why together, they are so intriguing. Whenever Shallan's past is mentioned, she blanks, even when we're in her point of view. We don't know how much time has passed, but we get the impression that there certainly is time passing. Except when she talks about it with Kal. For some reason, this made me laugh so hard. I could just picture Kaladin holding a BS detector and when Shallan makes a joke, it makes a ding sound. Cue more snarking. This has me picturing the button from the Staples commercial, or even that annoying chull buzzer in the game "Taboo." Ahh, fond memories of that buzzer.
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