Theory time: Listeners and Dead Bodies

[Singer she/her]

I've been thinking for a long time about possible origins of the Listener's tradition of not touching their dead. Maybe it is only in there because it is a convenient plot point in Way of Kings, but Brandon likes depth to his cultures so I think this was thought out a little more than that.

I suspect it is related to the Fused essentially being body snatchers. Maybe they refuse to touch their dead out of respect to their gods. Based on a history of the Fused inhabiting Singer bodies then when those bodies were killed they didn't touch them out of reverence or fear of their gods. The tradition continued after the desolations had ended and remains part of even the parshmen's cultural memories.

Has anyone else been thinking about this? Anyone have some good theories and/or juicy WoBs?

[Stormgate he/him]

Basic theory:

Traditions can sometimes stem from things like fear. You could be on to something with the body-snatcher idea. Maybe they thought that if they were near one of the Fused when they died, they would become Fused. Which, for all we know, has merit. Over time, it could have turned into a form of respect.

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

I think the reason the Listeners are hyper-protective of the dead has to do with the fact that at some point they were probably hunted (by humans) for their gemhearts. A lot of the old Voidbringer myths involve the Voidbringers "stealing your heart". One that comes to mind is Skar quoting in in the chasms shortly before Kaladin does his spear kata. It appeara handful of other times. Since they were hunted as a resource, they'd naturally be protective of their dead

[Singer she/her]

19 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

 A lot of the old Voidbringer myths involve the Voidbringers "stealing your heart".

I had forgotten about that little piece of lore. It is much creepier now knowing that humans might be the voidbringers referred to in this case.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Singer

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

It also makes those suits of armor that Bridge Four were wearing that much more macabre and horrifying to the Parshendi

[Gray to he/him]

Yeah it's almost as if Bridge Four had taken over their bodies liked the Fused did

[Gasper he/him]

I kind of doubt the stealing of Singer gem hearts. The reasons for this is that the gem hearts have no value, they do not hold stormlight and cannot be used for Soulcasting. If they did have value, why are the humans not tracking down the bodies of their dead Parshmen and taking their gem hearts. The description seems to place their size at several broam sized stones, roughly the size of a thumb joint. Even in clearchips, that would be worth several days labor for your average darkeyes.

[insert_anagram_here]

I agree with @Gasper it doesn't make sense that Parshendi gemhearts are valuable. BTW, remember that there are three blood colors from the Herald prologue (red orange and violet); I think the valuable gemhearts belong to the crustacean-like creatures that have violet blood, like the Greatshells. The Parshendi have orange blood.

Also, if Parshendi were protective of their gemhearts, fearing that humans would steal them, they wouldn't leave their dead unattended. Instead, they would have a proper funeral ceremony, burial or cremation.

OB spoiler:

Spoiler

I wonder if this fear for the dead, is the reason why the Fused were scared when they handed that blade over to Moash Vyre, the one that killed Jezrien.

3

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by insert_anagram_here
typo

[Scion of the Mists]

5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

BTW, remember that there are three blood colors from the Herald prologue (red orange and violet); I think the valuable gemhearts belong to the crustacean-like creatures that have violet blood, like the Greatshells. The Parshendi have orange blood.

What effect do you think blood color has on the gemhearts?  I think that the value of the gemhearts is the same as the value of any gemstone - it comes from its size.  

[insert_anagram_here]

@Scion of the Mists I was more pointing to the fact that there are at least three separate 'races' of beings on Roshar, that have different blood color. We've only seen Greatshells with the valuable kind of gemhearts so far and I wanted to point out that we at least know that big difference between that species and Parshendi. Just because they are both presumably native on Roshar it doesn't mean they of similar anatomy. 

[Scion of the Mists]

16 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

@Scion of the Mists I was more pointing to the fact that there are at least three separate 'races' of beings on Roshar, that have different blood color. We've only seen Greatshells with the valuable kind of gemhearts so far and I wanted to point out that we at least know that big difference between that species and Parshendi. Just because they are both presumably native on Roshar it doesn't mean they of similar anatomy. 

Yes, the greatshells have the most valuable gemhearts - they're the largest due to the greatshells being the largest.  Large gems are more valuable because they can hold more Stormlight and are less likely to crack when used for Soulcasting.  However, smaller gemstone have value too, in fact, some animals are raised by farmers specifically for their gemhearts.  

[insert_anagram_here]

19 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Yes, the greatshells have the most valuable gemhearts - they're the largest due to the greatshells being the largest.  Large gems are more valuable because they can hold more Stormlight and are less likely to crack when used for Soulcasting.  However, smaller gemstone have value too, in fact, some animals are raised by farmers specifically for their gemhearts.  

I think that gumfrem should have purple blood as well then. Now I wonder if the Scouring of Aimia is connected to this.

Edit: I mean, larkin seem to be native on Aimia and we know those feed on stormlight. I wonder if their gemhearts could be harvested in the same way and if what we know as the event of 'Scouring of Aimia' was essentially a mass harvesting of gemhearts. (just speculating here)

Edited February 4, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

[Scion of the Mists]

28 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I think that gumfrem should have purple blood as well then.

Where are you getting this idea that gemhearts are related to blood color?  I don't remember any indication of this in the books or in any of the WoBs I've come across.  

[insert_anagram_here]

14 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Where are you getting this idea that gemhearts are related to blood color?  I don't remember any indication of this in the books or in any of the WoBs I've come across.  

Hm, probably by the fact that there is an indication that evolution played its part on Roshar (Dawnsingers were the ancient Listeners, Unkalaki have listener blood etc). And I would assume that different blood color indicates that each blood-color species evolved from different ancestors and in separate ecosystems. From Shallan's observations in WoR there is also an indication that the Greatshells' unique life cycle is what attributes to them having such huge and valuable gemhearts. So I kinda mashed the whole rationale in my head I guess.

Edited February 4, 2019 by insert_anagram_here
typo/grammar

[Scion of the Mists]

1 minute ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Hm, probably by the fact that there is an indication that evolution played its part on Roshar (Dawnsingers were the ancient Listeners, Unkalaki have listener blood etc). And I would assume that different blood color indicates that each blood-color species evolved by different ancestors and in separate ecosystems. From Shallan's observations in WoR there is also an indication that the Greatshells' unique life cycle is what attributes to them having such huge and valuable gemhearts. So I kinda mashed the whole rationale in my head I guess.

I think it's very possible, maybe even likely, that they are tangentially related, in terms of correlated phenotypes.  And it could very well be that humans (and non-Rosharan animals) = red, singer = orange, crustacean/Rosharan animals = violet.  

 

13 hours ago, Gasper said:

I kind of doubt the stealing of Singer gem hearts. The reasons for this is that the gem hearts have no value, they do not hold stormlight and cannot be used for Soulcasting. If they did have value, why are the humans not tracking down the bodies of their dead Parshmen and taking their gem hearts. The description seems to place their size at several broam sized stones, roughly the size of a thumb joint. Even in clearchips, that would be worth several days labor for your average darkeyes.

We don't have any indication that singer gemhearts do not hold Stormlight.  The reason why humans weren't harvesting them is because they didn't know that they were there.  They're hidden inside the sternum (like actually inside the bone).  

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I was wondering, in Stormlight, what kind of gem the Parshendi gemhearts were, or do they just, do they hold Stormlight well?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, this is a good question. This is one that people have been asking me since the first book, if they had one, and I've finally kind of confirmed it in book three. So the reason people don't think Parshendi have a gemheart is it is milky white, and looks like bone.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

But aren't their bones red?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Their bones, well... their bones are red... not completely. If you're going to pull out the bone, what you're going to see.... I'll explain it in the next book. So what you're going to do is, if you break open the bone, you're going to find this white... it's not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it's marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there's a gemheart in there. And it kind of relates to some stuff in Dragonsteel that I'm not gonna get into. But you'll see in the next books. But there's a good reason people just don't think that Parshendi have a gemheart. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So they must not glow much then, I'm assuming.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, well, it's surrounded by bone. So it's a different special thing. We'll bring it out in the following books. It might not be the next one.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

[Singer she/her]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

We don't have any indication that singer gemhearts do not hold Stormlight.  The reason why humans weren't harvesting them is because they didn't know that they were there.  They're hidden inside the sternum (like actually inside the bone).  

This makes me wonder if this is something that humans used to know and the information was lost. If so, and humans really did steal gem hearts from murdered singers, that is terrifying. but maybe the Voidbringers stealing hearts myth just came from humans taking gem hearts from other animals as they do now. possibly anicent Singers thought that was disturbing and it became part of their folklore.

[Ciridae]

From The Rythm of the Lost:

Quote

"Eshonai...?" she whispered, and nudged the corpse again. Demid gasped. Touching the bodies of the fallen was taboo. The old songs spoke of days when humans had hacked apart listener corpses, searching for gemhearts. Leave the dead to peace instead, it was their way. 

Humans did at one point know, and they did harvest singers.

This is where the incredible anger and outrage comes from, that the listeners show when Kaladin wears listener corpse armor. They usually don't even touch their own dead. What's really crazy though is that regular parshmen also show aggression when their dead are touched. It's one of the few things that make the Slaveform singers angry, and they are allowed to take care of their own dead. Isn't that odd? The listeners have their oral histories and thousands of years of tradition, but even the parshmen know not to let anyone else touch their dead.