Kaladin among the bridgemen, Raoden among the Elantrians

[Eran of Arcadia]

I just finished WoK. Great book.

The whole plot of Kaladin being thrown to the bridgemen and managing to organize them and improve their conditions and all that reminded me of what Raoden did in similar circumstances. Imagine having nothing, being thrown into a situation where there is no hope other than suicide, and using nothing more than guile and force of personality to make life better for everyone. It also reminded me of

Spoiler

Miles Vorkosigan in the Cetegandan POW Camp in Borders of Infinity - although in that case he had lots of outside help and it was all part of a plan.

In all 3 cases, it was horribly depressing just reading about their conditions, and I loved what they were able to accomplish. Thoughts?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Brandon does have similar plots sometimes, and similar characters. Inspiring people in horrible conditions seems to be a recurring theme. Kelsier and his speeches to the skaa in Mistborn is somewhat similar. 

Personally, I think Kaladins story is better than Raodens though. Kaladin is a much better character.

[Winds Alight she/her]

I believe I read a WOB about this that was along the lines of Brandon being a fan of scenarios like this: Toss a person into the worst possible situation and let them become the best they can be by overcoming the odds.

I agree that it's done better with Kaladin, though I like Raoden a lot as well and I do like the trope in itself. Kinda like a "not all that is gold glitters (at first)"

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I was actually bored with Raodens story. I really liked Hrathen and Sarene but I wanted to skip Raoden a lot of the time. He just felt bland compared to the rest. I think that his character is a ddefenitive proof of Brandons growth when it comes to building characters. Compare him to Kaladin, Kelsier or others, and he falls flat.

[Eran of Arcadia]

17 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

I believe I read a WOB about this that was along the lines of Brandon being a fan of scenarios like this: Toss a person into the worst possible situation and let them become the best they can be by overcoming the odds.

I'm fascinated by that trope. I love characters who overcome major disadvantages through cleverness - Miles Vorkosigan and Tavi from Codex Alera are a couple others.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Brandon tends to persistently re-use a number of themes/motifs/tropes.

He himself has mentioned his fascination with the concept of 'The City of the Gods':

• Elantris is the home of the "god-like" Elantrians.
• T'Telir literally has a Court of the Gods.
• Luthadel is home to the Lord Ruler, the Sliver of Infinity.
• I'll also mention Urithiru, even though it technically doesn't have gods.

There's one I call "The Idealist Despot":

• Elend Venture is an idealist, giving up his throne because of his ideals of democracy, but then switches to ruling by force because the others wouldn't uphold his ideals of equality for the Skaa.
• Dalinar Kholin spends most of The Way of Kings trying to "inspire by example" the other Highprinces into following the Codes, because it wouldn't mean anything unless they chose to act honorably, but then he grasps power and forces them to follow the Codes anyway because the Highprinces "are like children".

But the big one, to me, is "Atheist Becomes God":

• Sazed spends most of The Hero of Ages disproving religions, then at the end he becomes Harmony.
• Lightsong keeps insisting throughout Warbreaker that the Returned aren't gods, but then in the tunnels in chapter 57:

  Quote

  "By the Colors . . . Lightsong thought, standing up as the priests forced the God King to his knees. I am a god."

• You could even count Galladon, he states several times that the Elantrians weren't gods, yet becomes an Elantrian himself. This one is doubtful, because even as a restored Elantrian, I don't know if Galladon ever actually accepts this means he's a god.
• (I can't wait to see what kind of god Jasnah turns into, maybe one of a new set of Heralds?)

[Winds Alight she/her]

1 hour ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

(I can't wait to see what kind of god Jasnah turns into, maybe one of a new set of Heralds?)

I will gleefully take Jasnah ascending to be the new Honor in book ten. I then want to have several novellas about ardents losing their crem about it.

[Stark he/him]

Oh, I'd love a scene between Sazed and Jasnah where they both gripe about how their followers refuse to believe that they aren't gods.  I mean the followers of the Path are even instructed not to pray to Saze.

[Embrisk he/him]

On 31/01/2019 at 8:32 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

I was actually bored with Raodens story. I really liked Hrathen and Sarene but I wanted to skip Raoden a lot of the time. He just felt bland compared to the rest. I think that his character is a ddefenitive proof of Brandons growth when it comes to building characters. Compare him to Kaladin, Kelsier or others, and he falls flat.

Hm, that's interesting. I felt like skipping a lot of Elantris, but for a different reason. I felt like Raoden was an awesome character. Just a really positive guy. The whole plot was kind of slow, though. A lot of his plots feel really slow to me. Three years in the life of a slave. What should I expect? I'm always thrilled when I get to the end, though, because I've had so much time to get used to the character. I get attached.

[Subvisual Haze]

I would like to dub this genre "hope porn".  I find it quite enjoyable and it's very easy to project my emotions onto the secondary characters who are in this awful place and state of mind when suddenly a charismatic savior appears among them and give them unexpected hope.

[Pathfinder]

11 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

Brandon tends to persistently re-use a number of themes/motifs/tropes.

He himself has mentioned his fascination with the concept of 'The City of the Gods':

• Elantris is the home of the "god-like" Elantrians.
• T'Telir literally has a Court of the Gods.
• Luthadel is home to the Lord Ruler, the Sliver of Infinity.
• I'll also mention Urithiru, even though it technically doesn't have gods.

There's one I call "The Idealist Despot":

• Elend Venture is an idealist, giving up his throne because of his ideals of democracy, but then switches to ruling by force because the others wouldn't uphold his ideals of equality for the Skaa.
• Dalinar Kholin spends most of The Way of Kings trying to "inspire by example" the other Highprinces into following the Codes, because it wouldn't mean anything unless they chose to act honorably, but then he grasps power and forces them to follow the Codes anyway because the Highprinces "are like children".

But the big one, to me, is "Atheist Becomes God":

• Sazed spends most of The Hero of Ages disproving religions, then at the end he becomes Harmony.
• Lightsong keeps insisting throughout Warbreaker that the Returned aren't gods, but then in the tunnels in chapter 57:
• You could even count Galladon, he states several times that the Elantrians weren't gods, yet becomes an Elantrian himself. This one is doubtful, because even as a restored Elantrian, I don't know if Galladon ever actually accepts this means he's a god.
• (I can't wait to see what kind of god Jasnah turns into, maybe one of a new set of Heralds?)

 

10 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

I will gleefully take Jasnah ascending to be the new Honor in book ten. I then want to have several novellas about ardents losing their crem about it.

 

5 hours ago, Stark said:

Oh, I'd love a scene between Sazed and Jasnah where they both gripe about how their followers refuse to believe that they aren't gods.  I mean the followers of the Path are even instructed not to pray to Saze.

I will reply to all in one go. First I do not feel Sazed ever was an atheist. He is a theist/agnostic. There was just not one particular set of beliefs he prescribed to. Ultimately he did end up questioning these beliefs, but that does not mean he was an atheist. 

It would be ironic for Jasnah to take up the shard of honor and instruct the ardents in all the ways that she is not a god.

I have said before and I will say again, you can be very cosmere aware and still very much be an atheist. Whether or not Jasnah ascends changes nothing. The knights radiant were seen as gods, yet they were just normal people with powers anyone could theoretically attain. So too with the shards. Anyone with the right means and know how can attain one of the shards and hold the power. Doesn't mean they are suddenly deities worthy of worship. People with more money than us have more power. Does that mean we should worship them as gods? Of course not. In every example they have just as many flaws as anyone else. They just have more power to push around. Now to be clear, Agnostic (Dalinar and Kaladin), and believers (Navani, and Shallan) can just as easily exist in the cosmere as well. I am just saying finding out about Shards and such does not mean "ah well guess the atheists were disproved, they now have to change their beliefs". You can most certainly exist in the cosmere, have the knowledge of Khriss, and still be a firm atheist. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Winds Alight she/her]

That makes for some very interesting philosophical and theological debate. Was exactly is a god? How do you define deity? Depending on religion?
Can an entity be a god because of sheer power? Or knowledge?
Or is there, by belief of monotheistic religions, only one God, defined by their properties as creator of all life and ever-watching Lord over all things human?

I'm not very Cosmere-savvy. Is there any reliable info about Adonalsium? What were they before shattering? Creator of life or "simply" something very, very powerful?

Depending on which definition, humans could never become a god, or anyone could.
Was Dalinar a god during the OB climax? He sure was very powerful, yeah, but is that enough to call yourself god/God?

Does a god need to set up some rules for human/humanoid life to follow by to be their true god? Or doesn't that matter all?

I myself don't have any answers for all these questions, I don't believe in, uh, following any god or religion, because I don't know whether there actually is something worth following and I'm not a fan of (organized) religion. But I sure love thinking about these kinds of things.
I guess you could show Jasnah any godlike being currently known in the Cosmere and she would be like "yeah well, good for you, I'm not praying to you." (I like her a lot for that.)

Edited February 1, 2019 by Winds Alight

[+ILuvHats he/him]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Now to be clear, Agnostic (Dalinar and Kaladin),

Sorry to nitpick, but I’d actually call Dalinar a theist.  He certainly doesn’t believe in Vorinism anymore, but he’s spoken out multiple times that he still believes there’s a capital G god out there.  So even though he doesn’t believe in any organized religion, he’s still a theist, and hasn’t shown the nonchalance about the potential existence of a deity that Kaladin or Vin showed.  

Edited February 2, 2019 by ILuvHats

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

8 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

Was Dalinar a god during the OB climax? He sure was very powerful, yeah, but is that enough to call yourself god/God?

In Cosmere terminology, I'd say Dalinar was a Sliver, or something close to it.
But it might be more like Vin with the Well of Ascenscion, and Brandon's confirmed that she didn't hold the power long enough to be a Sliver.

"God" is a pretty complex definition: on the bottom end of the spectrum, "anything that is worshipped as a god, is a god", but at the top end, a god needs to be the creator of the universe and everything in it. Monotheism really screwed up the curve with that one.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Eagle of the Forest Path

[Pathfinder]

23 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

Sorry to nitpick, but I’d actually call Dalinar a theist.  He certainly doesn’t believe in Vorinism anymore, but he’s spoken out multiple times that he still believes there’s a capital G god out there.  So even though he doesn’t believe in any organized religion, he’s still a theist, and hasn’t shown the nonchalance about the potential existence of a deity that Kaladin or Vin showed.  

 I readily admit when I am in error. I always thought agnostic meant when you believe there is something more, but cannot as of yet define it. That is incorrect. So I agree Dalinar is a theist. I have seen Brandon confirm that Kaladin is an agnostic, so I lumped him and Dalinar together incorrectly.