Quantus he/him Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 This is a theory that has been nagging at me for a while. Per This WOB, the Unmade Re-Shephir is the "general source of the Midnight Essence" but it can be "extracted and used independently", which is why the Radiants of old werent sure who has "released it" in Dalinar's first vision. When they faced creatures of the Midnight Essence, and they were Invested enough to damage Shardplate with their claws, their bodies seem "almost fluid" and they can squeeze themselves through tiny openings if needed. And the kicker is that when they were killed its entire body would deflate with a hissing sound, leaving behind a skin that looked like a sack of black silk. So. Im thinking that Re-Shephir is an UnMade whose purpose is to channel Odium's hacked version of Awakening and and the Midnight Essence is Faux-Breaths, just as Ba-Ado-Mishram is a Channel for Voidlight, an Odium-hacked equivalent to Stormlight. This would have implications on the rest of the Unmade, if some of them are are also conduits intended to imitate the magics of Other Shardworlds. The only other one I have a guess on is Moelach is mimicking the Shades of Threnoly, on the logic that he's using Death's to power his ability to peer into the Spiritual Realm for Precognition, assuming the theory that the Shades are themselves the "morbid" perpendicularities on Threnoly is true. Thoughts? 4
Mailnaise she/her Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 First of all, awesome theory. 46 minutes ago, Quantus said: This would have implications on the rest of the Unmade, if some of them are are also conduits intended to imitate the magics of Other Shardworlds. If this is right, wouldn't this mean that there are 9 magic systems in the cosmere, some of which we may not know about? (Unless there is more than one from a single shardworld.) That's an awesome thought. It would also mean we can predict the ones we don't know once we know all the Unmade and their broken magics.
Quantus he/him Posted January 3, 2019 Author Posted January 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, Mailnaise said: First of all, awesome theory. If this is right, wouldn't this mean that there are 9 magic systems in the cosmere, some of which we may not know about? (Unless there is more than one from a single shardworld.) That's an awesome thought. It would also mean we can predict the ones we don't know once we know all the Unmade and their broken magics. If true I think we'd have at least two from Roshar itself (or maybe the system as a whole?), with BAM for Voidlight itself and Yelig-Nar for the Surges, so I dont think it would end up being 1/world or even 1/magic system. Though (as a tangent thought) I strongly suspect that the reason Odium is using these specific creatures to channel such things rather than doing it himself is to give him an easy cut-out point for when he eventually leaves the system and needs to rip his investiture away. I think he's been doing whatever he can to resist having to Invest from his own actual power. So instead of splintering his own spren he first tried carving up Singer Souls to make Cognitive shadow spren (the Fused) and then switched tactics to using Sja-anat to "corrupt" existing Spren, which again I have to assume take less of his own essence than creating whole spren from Himself. 2
Mailnaise she/her Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 5 hours ago, Quantus said: Though (as a tangent thought) I strongly suspect that the reason Odium is using these specific creatures to channel such things rather than doing it himself is to give him an easy cut-out point for when he eventually leaves the system and needs to rip his investiture away. I think he's been doing whatever he can to resist having to Invest from his own actual power. That's a really good point. Odium would need to do that wouldn't he? He's traveling all around the Cosmere splintering others, and to do that he can't afford to be weakened by leaving any of his power truly invested in another place any more than he has too.
SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 On 1/3/2019 at 4:48 PM, Mailnaise said: First of all, awesome theory. If this is right, wouldn't this mean that there are 9 magic systems in the cosmere, some of which we may not know about? (Unless there is more than one from a single shardworld.) That's an awesome thought. It would also mean we can predict the ones we don't know once we know all the Unmade and their broken magics. It would mean that Odium had stolen 9 magic systems, not that there are only 9 in the Cosmere. I think there are more than 9 on Sel alone. Does anyone have any thoughts on which of the Unmade would allow for Thunderclasts? Also, what magic system do you think Nergaoul is copying? I can't relate what he does to anything we've seen.
Thanatos Posted January 6, 2019 Posted January 6, 2019 I dont see Odium or the Shards traveling around the Cosmere. I see the Shards 'AS' the Cosmere itself. The part about 'trapping' Ruin or Odium, I see this as the vessels mind being trapped not the Shard. As the vessels are finite but the Shards are infinite. This prevents the vessels mind from popping around the Cosmere. Where that mind goes it's only allowed to see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture. For example Odium is the Cosmere, but Ryse can only see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture within the Greater Roshar system. 1
Dizzy he/him Posted January 6, 2019 Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Thanatos said: I dont see Odium or the Shards traveling around the Cosmere. I see the Shards 'AS' the Cosmere itself. The part about 'trapping' Ruin or Odium, I see this as the vessels mind being trapped not the Shard. As the vessels are finite but the Shards are infinite. This prevents the vessels mind from popping around the Cosmere. Where that mind goes it's only allowed to see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture. For example Odium is the Cosmere, but Ryse can only see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture within the Greater Roshar system. That could make sense but I don't think it does really. Otherwise, why would Odium need to travel to Sel, Threnody, etc. to splinter the Shards? If their power is everywhere, why not just splinter them from a safe location? Also, the Dor is located ONLY in the Cognitive Realm surrounding Sel. If the Dor was the whole Cosmere, then worldhopping would be waaaay more dangerous regardless of where you go. In addition, lets say Harmony was permeating the whole Cosmere, then why aren't any Rosharans born with Connection to him? I am not trying to say you are wrong, because you could totally be right, I just do not understand how that would mesh with the current systems/situations that we see. Edited January 6, 2019 by Dizzy
MountainKing Posted January 6, 2019 Posted January 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Dizzy said: That could make sense but I don't think it does really. Otherwise, why would Odium need to travel to Sel, Threnody, etc. to splinter the Shards? If their power is everywhere, why not just splinter them from a safe location? Also, the Dor is located ONLY in the Cognitive Realm surrounding Sel. If the Dor was the whole Cosmere, then worldhopping would be waaaay more dangerous regardless of where you go. In addition, lets say Harmony was permeating the whole Cosmere, then why aren't any Rosharans born with Connection to him? I am not trying to say you are wrong, because you could totally be right, I just do not understand how that would mesh with the current systems/situations that we see. When you shatter a shard, you got to do it at the focus of the shard, the mind of the shard. Also Dominion and Devotion were only forced into the Cog. Realm after they were shattered.
Mailnaise she/her Posted January 6, 2019 Posted January 6, 2019 16 hours ago, Thanatos said: I dont see Odium or the Shards traveling around the Cosmere. I see the Shards 'AS' the Cosmere itself. The part about 'trapping' Ruin or Odium, I see this as the vessels mind being trapped not the Shard. As the vessels are finite but the Shards are infinite. This prevents the vessels mind from popping around the Cosmere. Where that mind goes it's only allowed to see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture. For example Odium is the Cosmere, but Ryse can only see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture within the Greater Roshar system. I see it as less, "traveling", and more focusing the majority of their power elsewhere, which for a shard is essentially traveling.
Scion of the Mists Posted January 7, 2019 Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) On 1/6/2019 at 1:36 AM, Dizzy said: On 1/5/2019 at 7:20 PM, Thanatos said: I dont see Odium or the Shards traveling around the Cosmere. I see the Shards 'AS' the Cosmere itself. The part about 'trapping' Ruin or Odium, I see this as the vessels mind being trapped not the Shard. As the vessels are finite but the Shards are infinite. This prevents the vessels mind from popping around the Cosmere. Where that mind goes it's only allowed to see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture. For example Odium is the Cosmere, but Ryse can only see/feel/directly experience and manipulate investiture within the Greater Roshar system. That could make sense but I don't think it does really. Otherwise, why would Odium need to travel to Sel, Threnody, etc. to splinter the Shards? If their power is everywhere, why not just splinter them from a safe location? Also, the Dor is located ONLY in the Cognitive Realm surrounding Sel. If the Dor was the whole Cosmere, then worldhopping would be waaaay more dangerous regardless of where you go. In addition, lets say Harmony was permeating the whole Cosmere, then why aren't any Rosharans born with Connection to him? I am not trying to say you are wrong, because you could totally be right, I just do not understand how that would mesh with the current systems/situations that we see. @Thanatos is correct. All Investiture across the Cosmere belongs to the Shards. However, the Vessels are limited in what they can perceive/control, and are generally limited to interacting with their own system where they "reside." Quote Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm source In the example of Patji, it was a collection of Autonomy Investiture, but Autonomy was not previously aware of it (because her Vessel was not in proximity to it). When she (somehow) did become aware, then she was able to manipulate it directly. This Vessel awareness limitation is why Odium had to "travel" to fight/Splinter his victims. And also why he could be "trapped" on Roshar. With regards to Harmony, there's probably Harmony (or at least Ruin/Preservation) Investiture everywhere, but the concentration is so low that it doesn't count as enough Connection to enable the Metallic Arts. Edited January 7, 2019 by Scion of the Mists 1
Dizzy he/him Posted January 7, 2019 Posted January 7, 2019 35 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said: @Thanatos is correct. All Investiture across the Cosmere belongs to the Shards. However, the Vessels are limited in what they can perceive/control, and are generally limited to interacting with their own system where they "reside." In the example of Patji, it was a collection of Autonomy Investiture, but Autonomy was not previously aware of it (because her Vessel was not in proximity to it). When she (somehow) did become aware, then she was able to manipulate it directly. This Vessel awareness limitation is why Odium had to "travel" to fight/Splinter his victims. And also why he could be "trapped" on Roshar. With regards to Harmony, there's probably Harmony (or at least Ruin/Preservation) Investiture everywhere, but the concentration is so low that it doesn't count as enough Connection to enable the Metallic Arts. Ok that clears that up for me. But now I have a new question. If all investiture in the Cosmere belongs to a Shard, how do spirit webs factor in? Because souls or spirits in the Cosmere are pure Investiture.
Quantus he/him Posted January 7, 2019 Author Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Dizzy said: Ok that clears that up for me. But now I have a new question. If all investiture in the Cosmere belongs to a Shard, how do spirit webs factor in? Because souls or spirits in the Cosmere are pure Investiture. Near as we can tell (and since this is based on explicitly fallible in-world theory, we cant be 100% certain) Anything that exists has a representation in the Spiritual Realm, which is a realm of Pure Investiture, as well as a Cognitive Self to some extent based on sentience (but includes even inanimate objects). ALL Investiture was once part of Adonalsium, and all Investiture was assigned to one of the 16 Shardic Intents when the Shattering of Adonalsium happened. As others have said previously, the Shardic Vessels are not themselves capable of comprehending and controlling the full 1/16th of that particular Infinity (And yes, mathematically there can be lesser and greater Infinities) so they are more limited in what they can see and do with their slice of Creation. Does that answer your question? We are getting into fairly abstract realmic philosophy at this point, so answers will all be relatively vague and likely less than satisfying. Edited January 7, 2019 by Quantus
Scion of the Mists Posted January 7, 2019 Posted January 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Dizzy said: Ok that clears that up for me. But now I have a new question. If all investiture in the Cosmere belongs to a Shard, how do spirit webs factor in? Because souls or spirits in the Cosmere are pure Investiture. "Are Spiritwebs made of Investiture?" Ooh, that's a really good question, to which I don't have a good answer. I'd make a new topic in the "Q&A" subforum so some of the Cosmere experts can weigh in. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that they are not. Investiture in the Cosmere is an addition to the energy-matter duality we have here in the real world. So, in the Cosmere, it's energy-matter-Investiture, which can all be convert to/from one another. Spiritwebs are tricky (see the Coppermind page, which describes it as "a rather mysterious concept"...). My current understanding is that an object's Spiritweb is a collection of all of the object's Connections to other things, through time (both past and present) and space. So, in this case, it wouldn't necessarily be a "real" thing that could be transformed into matter or energy, and as such wouldn't be considered a form of Investiture. You could *use* Investiture to change or modify it, however (which is what Hemalurgy does).
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