Miscellaneous Shard questions

[Stanchion]

Sorry for the title, but I have a few misc. questions, and don't want to create a full topic for each one.

1. If shardblades/honorblades cut the soul, and can kill spren, as seen in Oathbringer, why can't they perma-kill Fused, whereas Nightblood can?
2. On Roshar's Cognitive Realm, we see soul-flames winking out on death, while on Scadrial, they hang around about while Preservation/Harmony talks to them. Is the reason for the Scadrial delay is because Preservation is reclaiming the extra investiture from the temporary cognitive shadow before they pass on?
3. Does the fanbase have any solid theories about how Preservation imprisoned Ruin? I know Kelsier had a theory before it was shot down in Secret History. I guess Leras might have sacrificed his mind to cut off Ati's mind from the bulk of his power, and created Atium to leach Ruin's future-sight, but is there anything concrete?
4. Has there been any indication if the Shards can be held collectively by multiple people, say 10? If so, would this increase the access to the infinite power over that held by one person?

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Stanchion said:

Sorry for the title, but I have a few misc. questions, and don't want to create a full topic for each one.

1. If shardblades/honorblades cut the soul, and can kill spren, as seen in Oathbringer, why can't they perma-kill Fused, whereas Nightblood can?

Nightblood is weird, it completely Annihalates it's target in All Three Realms, and then if Im not mistaken absorbes all the converted Investiture.  By comparison shardblades damage the Soul, but there is enough left that it can still be healed by F-Gold, Regrowth surge etc, so presumably Odium can consciously restore them.  Nightblood prevents that because it Eats ALL the pieces.

1 hour ago, Stanchion said:

1. On Roshar's Cognitive Realm, we see soul-flames winking out on death, while on Scadrial, they hang around about while Preservation/Harmony talks to them. Is the reason for the Scadrial delay is because Preservation is reclaiming the extra investiture from the temporary cognitive shadow before they pass on?

As I understand it (though it is debated) all planets are going to have fairly unique Cognitive Realms, influenced largely by the population's collective expectation/image of it.  Thus Roshar has a Gem theme, while Metals glow and act as a window/gate to the Spiritual Realm on Scadrial.

1 hour ago, Stanchion said:

1. Has there been any indication if the Shards can be held collectively by multiple people, say 10? If so, would this increase the access to the infinite power over that held by one person?

Strongly debated, no resolution.  Based on Harmony, it seems unlikely to me that you'd be able to maintain any sort of balance with that many competing Intents, especially at ten.  There are arguments that certain combinations might work better together than others and make it possible.  On the other hand, once you have several already, adding another is going to cause less and less upset.  So if you could get to 10, Id think the next 6 would be easier that the last, but I wouldnt bet on anyone in particular being able to pull it off (other than that obvious dude). 

[Quantus he/him]

17 minutes ago, Stanchion said:

Thanks for the answers so far!

Sorry, what I meant was, can multiple Vessels hold the same Shard at the same time?

My thought it that it might help with Intent corrupting the Vessel personality by splitting it up? 

Sort of splintering, but only the Connection between the Vessels and the Shard is being split.

So say both Kaladin, and Szeth ascended to Honor, Kaladin would take the Windrunner interpretation of Honor of following his own personal morality, and Szeth would take the legalistic interpretation  of Honor always keeping to his word.

That way Honor as a group (pantheon?) becomes super flexible - more so than Harmony, as different Vessels can deal with different situations.

Oooh, Sorry I misunderstood the question.  That's more or less what we Think Autonomy is doing, and that the term "Avatar" being used (but not yet defined) is indication of a shard being shared more or less equally in different locations.  However, what if any heirarchy that may exist between the Avatars in unknown and the topic of lots of speculation.  Id also assume that Honor would go about it differently than Autonomy, by theme.

Personally, I suspect that is why Autonomy and Odium get along: we know per WOB that Odium's goal is to be the most Powerful being in the Cosmere, without taking on new shards that would change him.  We also know Per WOB that a Shard technically has access to the full 1/16 of ALL the infinite investiture in the Cosmere, regardless of where it is, but that the Vessels still have finite minds and would need to become aware of the other locations to tap into it; so in theory Preservation could meditate or something and become aware of the aspects of Preservation on another planet.  I think Autonomy does that, but rather than going there and adding the new cache of Autonomous Investiture to their accessible store, they arrange a new Vessel to take up the Shard on the Local level. In this way the Spiritual aspect of Autonomy is being distributed among several different Cognitive Aspects scattered on different Shardworlds.  Oduim would like this solution because it's splitting up the Autonomy Energy rather than Gathering it together. 

[Calderis he/him]

@Stanchion they do use time dilation to live longer, but it is not inherently part of the travel.

SH spoilers and length

Spoiler

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. 

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm

Questioner

So when Kelsier...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

...in Shadesmar. He meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrian.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Like how far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- he has s-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into kind of the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's <still there> in the Scadrian system, just...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep.

Questioner

Okay, just edging it there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point <at> him. I would get really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah.

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

...in the Cognitive Realm... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah.

Questioner

So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it's *inaudible* would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause...

Questioner

Right.

Brandon Sanderson

But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hoakie, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

source

We know that there are times that Hoid has left one world and been back in a matter of months. I know that it's Scadrial, but I don't remember exactly which two occurrences... 

[Ripheus23]

2 hours ago, Stanchion said:

Does the fanbase have any solid theories about how Preservation imprisoned Ruin? I know Kelsier had a theory before it was shot down in Secret History. I guess Leras might have sacrificed his mind to cut off Ati's mind from the bulk of his power, and created Atium to leach Ruin's future-sight, but is there anything concrete?

Per WoB (I will look for it if needed), what Preservation did was "kind of like Splintering." The mental image I have of Splintering is of a Spiritweb being a complex graph with a crystal-like look to it (like, IDK, a 4-dimensional object with 16 surfaces/facets, or whatever), with Splintering being the breaking of nodes and connectors off the graph. By contrast, Preservation divided Ruin's Cognitive and Spiritual sides to some extent, or put an interdict between them, or whatever. Likewise, Ruin's Physical presence was interdicted in the atium deposits. So Splintering in itself is mono-Realmatic (division of a Spiritweb) whereas Ruin's "prison" was poly-Realmatic (division of pan-Realmatic presence) with the Spiritweb remaining intact.

[Stanchion]

Thanks for the answers so far!

54 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Strongly debated, no resolution.  Based on Harmony, it seems unlikely to me that you'd be able to maintain any sort of balance with that many competing Intents, especially at ten.  There are arguments that certain combinations might work better together than others and make it possible.  On the other hand, once you have several already, adding another is going to cause less and less upset.  So if you could get to 10, Id think the next 6 would be easier that the last, but I wouldnt bet on anyone in particular being able to pull it off (other than that obvious dude). 

Sorry, what I meant was, can multiple Vessels hold the same Shard at the same time?

My thought it that it might help with Intent corrupting the Vessel personality by splitting it up? 

Sort of splintering, but only the Connection between the Vessels and the Shard is being split.

So say both Kaladin, and Szeth ascended to Honor, Kaladin would take the Windrunner interpretation of Honor of following his own personal morality, and Szeth would take the legalistic interpretation  of Honor always keeping to his word.

That way Honor as a group (pantheon?) becomes super flexible - more so than Harmony, as different Vessels can deal with different situations.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Stanchion

[Stanchion]

Thanks both

Has it been considered that Worldhopper time dilation (e.g. Khriss and Nazh) could be down to the Cognitive Realm keeping Physical realm causality, including light speed causality propagation?

E.g. Say Roshar and Scadrial are 4 light years apart, Hoid does his thing in Stormlight Archive Books 1 - 5, then heads into Shadesmar. As he travels the boundaries of Scadrial's and Roshar's cognitive realm, time slows for him, meaning 5 years passes in the real world while only (hours? days?) passes for Hoid.

Hoid spends a year or so in the Scadrial appearing in the Alloy of Law books, and then heads back to Roshar for Books 6-10, again taking 5 years in the cognitive realm.

This would explain how Khriss and Nazh, and other apparently "normal" worldhoppers have been around for hundreds or thousands of years - accumulated jumps builds up extra time in the physical realm.

I'm not sure how the Silverlight university or other cross-world organisations would work however, since any expeditions could take decades or hundreds of years to return. Perhaps as it is in the Cognitive Realm, they've managed to slow time around it? So expeditions and merchant shipping seem to happen faster.