Ripheus23 Posted November 25, 2018 Posted November 25, 2018 Or, not "change" so much as "adjust." This would explain the "Passion" thing: Rayse is trying to reinterpret his Shard's Intent. So while there is a WoB about him being self-deceived in relation hereto, technically, there's wiggle-room in the wording. Namely, although the Shard is indeed Odium right now, it could become Passion. (And Rayse is envious of the other Shards, in the classical sense of wanting to bring the other Shards down so he can be raised up. Envy has been described as "one of the vices of hating mankind" (emphasis added from Rawls, AToJ, somewhere [don't have the book at hand]), so Envy would be another candidate reinterpretation. So maybe Rayse is lying to himself such that he has subconsciously interpreted his Intent as Envy while trying to consciously interpret the energy of Envy as pure Passion.) 3
RShara she/her Posted November 25, 2018 Posted November 25, 2018 Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW] Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW] So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Part of him does. Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW] Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. source
Calderis he/him Posted November 25, 2018 Posted November 25, 2018 A Vessel can have no lasting change on their Shard. Just as Harmony could theoretically become Discord, Odium could change his views and the interpretation could change... But that would need to be an internal shift on Rayse part, not a conscious decision to try and realign things. I don't believe that the Vessels interpretation is a conscious thing at all. It's the way they subconsciously interpret the concrete concept that they hold which has an effect, not something as malleable as conscious thought.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 25, 2018 Posted November 25, 2018 It was stated that Odium fit Rayse well. I doubt he wants to change it. 1
kaellok he/him Posted November 26, 2018 Posted November 26, 2018 4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: It was stated that Odium fit Rayse well. I doubt he wants to change it. Even more than this, the reason why Odium has not picked up the Shards that he has Splintered (Dominion, Devotion, Honor, and Ambition) is because he doesn't want to change. Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard. source
Ripheus23 Posted November 26, 2018 Author Posted November 26, 2018 I can't tell if anyone is agreeing or disagreeing with me
Stormfather-in-Law Posted November 26, 2018 Posted November 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said: I can't tell if anyone is agreeing or disagreeing with me I couldn't fail to disagree less. 2
Ookla-son-son-Ventyl Posted November 27, 2018 Posted November 27, 2018 I don’t think it could be possible to truly change the Intent of a shard, it’d be more plausible to have the name and perception of the Intent change from not only others, but the shard themselves. Even if he could make people think that the intent of his shard is not Odium, but Passion, or Envy (In which I believe might be its own individual Shard, but that’s a crackpot theory with no eveidence), I think he’d still be Odium at heart, but only showing that hate for mankind in the case of Envy, and in the case of Passion, hate and any things relating to the subject of Odium, can be considered very strong emotions which relates to Passion, which is feeling emotions strongly, if this is not the case, it would make it easier for him to make choices of his own, and considering if Passion could become his Intent as he says it is, it would make Rayse an even more scary thing than he already is to say the least. So, I do not think the Intent of a shard could actually change, but I do think how people perceive the shard and what they call it could change. Though, many things in the Cosmere, mainly in the Congnitive Realm and possibly the Spiritual Realm, belief can change things, whether this could effect a shard, I’m not educated enough to say and someone should probably tell me if this even could be possible. 1
Weltall Posted November 27, 2018 Posted November 27, 2018 Vessels can't permanently change their Shard but they do have a lot of influence in how their intent is expressed. The names given to the Shards aren't necessarly what they are, so much as they're the words the Vessels have come up with to describe the piece of Adonalsium that they're now bonded to. Quote Necarion Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the intent is open to many interpretations? Brandon Sanderson Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them. You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati. Necarion So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast? Brandon Sanderson Yes he would. source Sazed's a good example here because he's holding two Shards and his interpretation is why the combined power is 'Harmony' instead of 'Discord'. Brandon's also mentioned that he chose the name Harmony and did it because 'it felt right'. Given that the power of each Shard can be safely described as 'infinite' and the Vessels themselves can only filter the intent, it's safe to say that no amount of people believing that a Shard represents something different will actually change what that Shard fundamentally is. 1
Fanghur Rahl he/him Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 18 hours ago, Ookla the Asha’man said: or Envy (In which I believe might be its own individual Shard, but that’s a crackpot theory with no eveidence), I don’t think it’s crackpot at all. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if one of the remaining six Shards were Jealousy or Envy.
Ripheus23 Posted November 28, 2018 Author Posted November 28, 2018 Let's say the Intent of a Shard is a special Spiritweb function. For simplicity, it's the Spiritweb of the Shard. These are unchanging. Now, the Spiritweb filters into the Cognitive Realm, which gives us the Interpretation of the Intent. The Interpretation is caught in a cycle with the beliefs of physical beings. The names given to the Intents, are actually the Interpretations, written in Physical form. So, it's not so much that I would suggest Passion as a rewrite of Rayse's Shard's Spiritweb, but of the Cognitive-Physical representation of that Spiritweb.
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