Theory: Adolin is Dalinar's Squire

[Firiel she/her]

I disagree here. They seem like the perfect type to have them. Even Nalan gets a ton of use out of his mooks. I'd be surprised if Skybreakers couldn't get squires. If you're crashing a drug den, you'll want backup covering the exits even if you do go in alone.

 

Particularly considering if you go by that "Abstract Surge" theory, Skybreakers have abstract Gravity, which means they should either draw people to them or be supernaturally convincing, something along those lines. I was initially opposed to that theory, but it's growing on me. Shallan certainly has a sort of ability to use Transformation in more abstract, given how she transformed Gaz and co.

 

As further speculation on squires, if we see having squires as cultivating bonds between people (H+C), I'd expect the pure Honor (Bondsmiths) and pure Cultivation (Truthwatchers) Orders to have no ability to make squires. Highly speculative, and we don't even know if honorspren are "pure" Honor or what.

 

That's true.  I forgot about his goons.  Good point.

 

But imagine being Szeth's squire?!  Only the most terrifying role on Roshar.

[Moogle]

That's true.  I forgot about his goons.  Good point.

 

But imagine being Szeth's squire?!  Only the most terrifying role on Roshar.

 

Never in a million years would I want to be in that position. Ouch. Szeth has Nightblood, at least.

[Arondell]

 

Skybreakers seem like the kind that wouldn't have any sort of squires at all to me.  From what we've seen of Nale and Szeth, that order seems to be kind of a lone ranger harbinger of justice type deal.*

 

Actually law figures are often shown as having assistants.  Sheriffs have deputies and judges have bailiffs.   Also weren't many of the Lone Rangers actions technically illegal?  Should we just not bring up Tonto the sidekick?(i.e. squire) 

[maxal she/her]

Who said his family would be alive when he turns ?  Imagine what Adolin's response would be if Mr T manages to kill Dalinar and Renarin (or, god forbid, Shallan), and Adolin knew it was him but couldn't prove it.  Temptation wouldn't lure him from the side of good, but bloody vengeance?  He would cut a swathe so deep and wide that Szeth's would be the work of an amateur in comparison.

 

I guess I could see that happening.

 

 

 

It would make sense for Adolin to become an anti-hero for the sake of further exploring the theme of journey before destination. That being sad, I want to emphasize on anti-hero, not villain. It would be interesting to read, certainly not what I've expected of him after WoK. However, WoR gave Adolin a new edge I hope he'll explore.

 

 

Interesting. I like the idea of an anti-hero, one that does good, but in an unconventional way, sort of like the thief with a good heart (think Robin Hood)... I could see Adolin ending up in such a role after the events of WoR. He would end up on the lose, alone, far-away from the ones he loves, but at this would give an opportunity to grow into the man he really is.

[Pechvarry]

Some quick notes:
Kal apparently felt the Thrill as a kid (or rather: wasn't immune to it while fighting the other kid with a stick).

Provided Adhesion as a Surge, the knowledge that Windrunner squires have something extra, and the emphasis the story has on Spiritual bonds, I figure there is a decent chance Dalinar will A) be able to make every soldier that believes in his ideal (a stirring book 5 or book 10 speech) into lesser squires or have a super squire like Adolin.

But I don't see why Renarin is off the table.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Pechvarry

[Aether he/him]

But I don't see why Renarin is off the table.

Off the table? Well, his Radiancy would make Squire-abilities redundant at best.

[Pechvarry]

I meant as Adolin's... Liege?

[Zea mays she/her]

A thought just occured - at the end of WOR, Adolin clearly broke alethi law. The moment he injests so much as a photon of stormlight, Nale and his cohorts would decend on him like the murderous harpies they are. And they'll bring along the new member and his puppy... oh yeah, methinks ol' Adolin is in for some fun in book 3.

[maxal she/her]

But I don't see why Renarin is off the table.

 

Because Adolin is absolutely unsuited to be a Truthwatcher's squire..... or even a Bondsmith. Look at their primary attributes: Learned and Pious... Clearly, Adolin does not fit.

[Pathfinder]

I thought the skybreakers had to practically force themselves onto Nale before he would "sponser" them? If that is the case, I couldn't see him exactly supporting the idea of "deputies" who also could use a form of stormlight. Also if I recall correctly the skybreakers of "present day", weren't radiants. They were people who admittedly did have shardblades, but the implication was they weren't radiants themselves. That Szeth might be the first skybreaker radiant. 

 

Also after reading everyone's points, I have a slight theory of my own. Why not both? Kal suffered and grew as he went through each of the oaths, to the point of nearly losing Syl for good. Why couldn't Adolin become a knight radiant, but have problems of his own with the oaths? For instance, Brandon has said some orders would look on his killing of Sadeas favorably. What if the order that Adolin is apart of, is very contrary to Dalinar's? Skybreakers and windrunners were at odds, why not Adolin's order and Dalinar's? That would cause friction between them. The further Adolin goes through his oaths, the greater the schism between him and his father. He could feel his father is trying to hold him back. That coupled with guilt over acting contrary to how his father feels he should be I think would cause plenty of pain and plenty of growth. This would add even more problems for Dalinar because on one hand his order wants to unite, on the other Adolin's order disagrees. How can Dalinar resolve the tyrant that Hoid calls him, to unite the orders, without forcing his own oaths/values on others. Just some thoughts I had. 

Edited May 21, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[maxal she/her]

I thought the skybreakers had to practically force themselves onto Nale before he would "sponser" them? If that is the case, I couldn't see him exactly supporting the idea of "deputies" who also could use a form of stormlight. Also if I recall correctly the skybreakers of "present day", weren't radiants. They were people who admittedly did have shardblades, but the implication was they weren't radiants themselves. That Szeth might be the first skybreaker radiant. 

 

Also after reading everyone's points, I have a slight theory of my own. Why not both? Kal suffered and grew as he went through each of the oaths, to the point of nearly losing Syl for good. Why couldn't Adolin become a knight radiant, but have problems of his own with the oaths? For instance, Brandon has said some orders would look on his killing of Sadeas favorably. What if the order that Adolin is apart of, is very contrary to Dalinar's? Skybreakers and windrunners were at odds, why not Adolin's order and Dalinar's? That would cause friction between them. The further Adolin goes through his oaths, the greater the schism between him and his father. He could feel his father is trying to hold him back. That coupled with guilt over acting contrary to how his father feels he should be I think would cause plenty of pain and plenty of growth. This would add even more problems for Dalinar because on one hand his order wants to unite, on the other Adolin's order disagrees. How can Dalinar resolve the tyrant that Hoid calls him, to unite the orders, without forcing his own oaths/values on others. Just some thoughts I had. 

 

I think the friction between Adolin and Dalinar will happen due to Sadeas's murder. Dalinar has placed high hopes into Adolin: he has been grooming him for years to be the man he wants him to be. To see him commit such a low thing as the murder of a highprince will most certainly unhinge Dalinar. He will be sorely disappointed in his son and this will be hard to bear for Adolin. Having your hero and your role model look down on you disapprovingly must be tough, especially for someone who has, so far, always shine.

 

However, I could see , in the future, struggling to follow his father's orders as he does not believe they are sound. I could see them clashing over how to unite Alethkar as I believe Dalinar is not doing it properly. It wouldn't be hard to imagine foolhardy Dustbringers  (Adolin most likely order) and pious Bondsmith being at odds as the first would have a hard time following direct orders from the second.

[Aether he/him]

Because Adolin is absolutely unsuited to be a Truthwatcher's squire..... or even a Bondsmith. Look at their primary attributes: Learned and Pious... Clearly, Adolin does not fit.

I do not think someone's "attributes" have anything at all to do with their potential for Squiredom. Just look at Bridge Four - they're far from a homogeneous group of people, yet they are all likely to become Squires. And of the ones who has definitely shown signs of Squiredom - Teft, Skar and Lopen (plus two unnamed Bridgmen) - none of them really fit well with Protecting/Leading.

 

Given, we don't know them that well, but off the top of my head I'd place Lopen more into the Stonewardens (Dependable/Resourceful), Skar into the Dustbringers (Brave/Obedient) and Teft into the Elsecallers (Wise/Careful). 

[Aleksiel]

I do not think someone's "attributes" have anything at all to do with their potential for Squiredom. Just look at Bridge Four - they're far from a homogeneous group of people, yet they are all likely to become Squires. And of the ones who has definitely shown signs of Squiredom - Teft, Skar and Lopen (plus two unnamed Bridgmen) - none of them really fit well with Protecting/Leading.

 

Given, we don't know them that well, but off the top of my head I'd place Lopen more into the Stonewardens (Dependable/Resourceful), Skar into the Dustbringers (Brave/Obedient) and Teft into the Elsecallers (Wise/Careful). 

 

They are all bodyguards, hence protecting. They've protected each other in the bridgecrews, they protected Dalinar and his army at the Tower. All who have shown signs of squireship have been protecting for some time under Kaladin's lead. Even Lopen, he's been protecting his friends in a more subtle way, later on was involved in Elhokar's protection as well.

[Aether he/him]

They are all bodyguards, hence protecting. They've protected each other in the bridgecrews, they protected Dalinar and his army at the Tower. All who have shown signs of squireship have been protecting for some time under Kaladin's lead. Even Lopen, he's been protecting his friends in a more subtle way, later on was involved in Elhokar's protection as well.

There is a small but important difference between being a protector by duty and having a protecting personality. Dalinar, Shallan, Adolin, everyone is protecting someone at some point, What matters are their core personality traits. For Kaladin, it's clearly Protecting (and somewhat less clear, Leading), as he cannot stand letting people he cares about die at all (or even risk their lives too frivolously). While his Squires clearly takes part in protective duties, I would not say any of them (from what we know so far) displays "Protecting" as a primary attribute or personality trait.

[Aleksiel]

There is a small but important difference between being a protector by duty and having a protecting personality. Dalinar, Shallan, Adolin, everyone is protecting someone at some point, What matters are their core personality traits. For Kaladin, it's clearly Protecting (and somewhat less clear, Leading), as he cannot stand letting people he cares about die at all (or even risk their lives too frivolously). While his Squires clearly takes part in protective duties, I would not say any of them (from what we know so far) displays "Protecting" as a primary attribute or personality trait.

 

They chose to protect. Or rather accepted Kaladin's lead to protecting actions. I do not claim they share Kaladin's personality, else they'd be Radiants themselves. I argue they, after some time, began to express Kaladin's primary attribute and that's what makes them squires.

 

edit: And their connection to Kal, of course.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Aether he/him]

edit: And their connection to Kal, of course.

I would argue that - even if the displaying an Order's attribute(s) counts, which I do not think is the case - having a close bond to their Radiant is what lets them achieve Squiredom.

[Aleksiel]

I would argue that - even if the displaying an Order's attribute(s) counts, which I do not think is the case - having a close bond to their Radiant is what lets them achieve Squiredom.

 

It's certainly very important. I think the bond allows/encourages squires to express the Radian's primary attribute, but that's speculative. I think all who gained access to stormlight expressed Protecting as an integrated part of them (or adopted trait, if you wish), but I can't say if it's a must, just for now looks right to me.

 

Although I have trouble imagining Vathah suddenly involved in a creative activity if he is to become Shallan's squire. 

[Aether he/him]

Although I have trouble imagining Vathah suddenly involved in a creative activity if he is to become Shallan's squire. 

Which is why I think it is unlikely to include an Order's traits to any large extent. Kaladin's squires seems to be the odd case out, as they're all bodyguards, but Shallan's likely Squires (Vatah, Gaz, etc.) do not really fit at all with her primary trait. I guess you could argue that Honesty is something Gaz have had to learn, and Yalb is certainly creative in his own way. but I cannot see any particular pattern to it (no pun intended).

[Aleksiel]

Which is why I think it is unlikely to include an Order's traits to any large extent. Kaladin's squires seems to be the odd case out, as they're all bodyguards, but Shallan's likely Squires (Vatah, Gaz, etc.) do not really fit at all with her primary trait. I guess you could argue that Honesty is something Gaz have had to learn, and Yalb is certainly creative in his own way. but I cannot see any particular pattern to it (no pun intended).

 

May be Lightweaver will be one of the squireless Orders or creative ways to cut someone's throat will be close enough 

[Aether he/him]

May be Lightweaver will be one of the squireless Orders or creative ways to cut someone's throat will be close enough 

Well, that would certainly force Brandon to take some interesting literary turns. Yay for G. R. R. Martinifying Sanderson!

[Firiel she/her]

As further speculation on squires, if we see having squires as cultivating bonds between people (H+C), I'd expect the pure Honor (Bondsmiths) and pure Cultivation (Truthwatchers) Orders to have no ability to make squires. Highly speculative, and we don't even know if honorspren are "pure" Honor or what.

 

Just curious-- how do we know Bondsmiths are pure Honor and Truthwatchers are pure Cultivation?  I'm not intimately familiar with all the WoB or all the discussions here yet, and so I'm interested in learning more about this idea.

 

To me, it seems that Dalinar bonded the Stormfather-- well, yeah, Honor.  But then if there are potentially two other Bondsmiths bonding with unique spren, then those two other Bondsmiths may not even be honor-based.  Right?  And Syl is an honor-spren, so even if Windrunners are not PURE honor, they would be pretty close, implying that Windrunners would have very few squires.  On the contrary, they seem to have the most...

 

 

Interesting thoughts about what is more important in a squire bond-- an adherence to the traits or a closeness to the KR.  On that topic, there is a good chance that the men in Bridge Four were already becoming squires in WoK, before they were bodyguards.  And not many of them had protecting/leading tendencies when that process started.  Perhaps becoming a squire draws those tendencies out of a person?  Adolin has certainly become more pious/guiding throughout the books so far (murder of Sadeas aside... ).  He gains a lot of respect for the Codes throughout the first and second book.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Firiel

[Moogle]

Just curious-- how do we know Bondsmiths are pure Honor and Truthwatchers are pure Cultivation?  I'm not intimately familiar with all the WoB or all the discussions here yet, and so I'm interested in learning more about this idea.

 

We don't know that at all. It's huge speculation on my part, though I suspect it's not far from the truth. The WoB in question is:

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

(source)

 

The "Double Eye of the Almighty", or more specifically the "pupils" (the diagram with 8 spheres in a circle and 2 "pupils" in the middle representing the Bondsmiths/Truthwatchers) is supposed to represent plants and animals according to Vorinism. Truthwatchers are green, and have Growth, which makes them pretty plant-y and Cultivation-y, and opposite them is the Bondsmiths, which bond to Honor's (capital H) spren, the Stormfather (though this is also not confirmed, I feel very strongly that all Bondsmiths bond with him and him alone). Here's the chart for reference:

 

I also highly suspect that the "proportions" of the spren are not random, but that the top part of the chart is the more Honorable spren (100% Honor being the Stormfather) and the bottom part of the chart is the more Cultivation-y spren. The Edgedancers, the bottom-right diamond one, have a very Cultivation-y spren. Wyndle is a gardener! If we look at the Windrunners/Skybreakers (top right), we can see that there's a heavy focus on being honorable/following the law which would make those two Orders have spren that are mostly composed of Honor. Probably.

 

Also of note: Shallan's Order has a big focus on creativity, ie. making things (and are opposite the Windrunners). They seem like a very Cultivation-y Order, and of course they're on the bottom of the chart right next to the Truthwatchers.

 

Hopefully my rambling makes something resembling sense.

 

To me, it seems that Dalinar bonded the Stormfather-- well, yeah, Honor.  But then if there are potentially two other Bondsmiths bonding with unique spren, then those two other Bondsmiths may not even be honor-based.  Right?  And Syl is an honor-spren, so even if Windrunners are not PURE honor, they would be pretty close, implying that Windrunners would have very few squires.  On the contrary, they seem to have the most...

 

I don't think a 50/50 split between H+C will make the most squires, just that some Cultivation is required to make any at all. To be honest, I would expect the more Honor-y Orders (Windrunners, Skybreakers, Stonewards) to have the most squires, since it fits more in line with their attributes. It's hard to justify this beyond how I feel intuitively though, so take it with a huge heap of salt.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Firiel she/her]

We don't know that at all. It's huge speculation on my part, though I suspect it's not far from the truth. The WoB in question is:

 

The "Double Eye of the Almighty", or more specifically the "pupils" (the diagram with 8 spheres in a circle and 2 "pupils" in the middle representing the Bondsmiths/Truthwatchers) is supposed to represent plants and animals according to Vorinism. Truthwatchers are green, and have Growth, which makes them pretty plant-y and Cultivation-y, and opposite them is the Bondsmiths, which bond to Honor's (capital H) spren, the Stormfather (though this is also not confirmed, I feel very strongly that all Bondsmiths bond with him and him alone). Here's the chart for reference:

 

I also highly suspect that the "proportions" of the spren are not random, but that the top part of the chart is the more Honorable spren (100% Honor being the Stormfather) and the bottom part of the chart is the more Cultivation-y spren. The Edgedancers, the bottom-right diamond one, have a very Cultivation-y spren. Wyndle is a gardener! If we look at the Windrunners/Skybreakers (top right), we can see that there's a heavy focus on being honorable/following the law which would make those two Orders have spren that are mostly composed of Honor. Probably.

 

Also of note: Shallan's Order has a big focus on creativity, ie. making things (and are opposite the Windrunners). They seem like a very Cultivation-y Order, and of course they're on the bottom of the chart right next to the Truthwatchers.

 

Hopefully my rambling makes something resembling sense.

 

 

I don't think a 50/50 split between H+C will make the most squires, just that some Cultivation is required to make any at all. To be honest, I would expect the more Honor-y Orders (Windrunners, Skybreakers, Stonewards) to have the most squires, since it fits more in line with their attributes. It's hard to justify this beyond how I feel intuitively though, so take it with a huge heap of salt.

 

Yep, it all makes good sense!

 

The wording here would seem to agree with what you are putting forth about all Bondsmiths bonding with the Stormfather:

 

Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

-WoR chapter 30, page 18 (stolen from the Coppermind)

If they each bonded to different spren, one might expect it to say "Their spren were understood to be specific."

 

Do you think that the Truthwatchers bond to a Cultivation-equivalent of the Stormfather?  Perhaps the Nightwatcher?  Does that mean that Renarin will not have a Shardblade?  I wonder if a difference in the bonding between the two orders relates to the fact that Honor is dead and Cultivation is still alive...

[Moogle]

The wording here would seem to agree with what you are putting forth about all Bondsmiths bonding with the Stormfather:

If they each bonded to different spren, one might expect it to say "Their spren were understood to be specific."

 

This is a good point, but I'm wary of trusting Words of Radiance (as in, the in-world book). It's been hinted at rather heavily that it was censored by the Vorin church, and the age of the document means it has some odd grammar.

 

 

Do you think that the Truthwatchers bond to a Cultivation-equivalent of the Stormfather?  Perhaps the Nightwatcher?  Does that mean that Renarin will not have a Shardblade?  I wonder if a difference in the bonding between the two orders relates to the fact that Honor is dead and Cultivation is still alive...

 

I don't think they do, but I could be wrong. Ym and Renarin are Truthwatchers, and we see Ym's spren as a plant made of light.

 

As to the Shardblade bit, I'd expect Dalinar can have a Shardblade, and there's nothing stopping the Stormfather from becoming one except for the fact that he's being petulant. We do know that the Bondsmiths are special. I'd like to see Dalinar summon the Stormfather.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Firiel she/her]

Interesting.

 

So then, is it fair to say that Honor seems more reluctant to bond/send Spren than Cultivation?

 

Syl says that she's the only honorspren and that she came against her father's (presumably the Stormfather's) wishes.  We see Dalinar bonding with the Stormfather, of course.  And we see Nalan gathering Skybreakers, but we don't have any evidence that most (or ANY) of them are bonded with spren, right?

 

On the other side of the chart, we've seen two Truthwatchers, an Edgedancer, a Lightweaver, and an Elsecaller.

 

I mean, that difference in numbers could be coincidental, but then... it might not be, specifically when one keeps in mind that BS calls attention to Honor's reluctance through Syl.  Maybe?