Compounding Question

[Embrisk]

So, if i'm right, the reason compounding allows you to draw 10x the power of the metals you put in, is because in mistborn, the metals are the catalyst, not the power source. Kind of like how a hole twice as big in a bag of water will make more than twice the amount of water pour out. (Especially if the water is under high pressure.)
So this is all fine for the base metals, but what about the god metals, where the metals are the power source, and not the catalyst?
Does compounding work differently with god metals?

Edited October 29, 2018 by Servillius

[Calderis]

No, it doesn't. 

Even with the godmetals, where the power comes from the investiture of the metal itself, it's still a source of power external to the feruchemist. 

In standard Feruchemy, you're storing the power from your own spiritweb in metal. Once you have an external source for that power, you bypass all of its drawbacks. 

[Calderis]

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

No, even with godmetals the burned metal is still creating conduit to the Shard's infinite store of energy in the Spiritual Realm.

Atium is explicitly consumed as fuel. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

source

I would imagine that lerasium is the same, because it too is the physical essence of a Shard. There's no conduit needed when your burning an actual piece of investiture. 

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Atium is explicitly consumed as fuel. 

I would imagine that lerasium is the same, because it too is the physical essence of a Shard. There's no conduit needed when your burning an actual piece of investiture. 

damnation, my mistake.  I knew it was the specific exception in that did not source the power in Preservation, but I thought there was still a conduit to the Spiritual Realm at play, just with a different destination.

[Embrisk]

Um, so if atium and malatium don't act as the gateway for the power, where does the extra power come from when you compound?

Does it magically open a gate to ruin/preservation when you compound with a god metal?

Eg: The whole time Lord Ruler was using his atium to live longer, he was drawing the (extra) power from ruin?

I assume that would have to be the case, because otherwise I don't see how any extra investiture could be obtained, to continue the compounding process.

And does compounding atium draw from ruin or preservation?

Edited October 30, 2018 by Servillius

[Scion of the Mists]

15 hours ago, Servillius said:

Um, so if atium and malatium don't act as the gateway for the power, where does the extra power come from when you compound?

Does it magically open a gate to ruin/preservation when you compound with a god metal?

Eg: The whole time Lord Ruler was using his atium to live longer, he was drawing the (extra) power from ruin?

I assume that would have to be the case, because otherwise I don't see how any extra investiture could be obtained, to continue the compounding process.

14 hours ago, Servillius said:

And does compounding atium compounding draw from ruin or preservation?

Good question!  I think it has to come from Ruin.  I don't think it would make sense for Atium compounding to draw from Preservation, as it's a different Shard's godmetal.  

P.s. Welcome to the Shard!  Double posting is not allowed (see the forum rules in the Welcome Post).  If you want to modify or add to your previous post, use the edit button.  

[Embrisk]

^^ Happy?

[Quantus]

21 hours ago, Servillius said:

Um, so if atium and malatium don't act as the gateway for the power, where does the extra power come from when you compound?

Does it magically open a gate to ruin/preservation when you compound with a god metal?

Eg: The whole time Lord Ruler was using his atium to live longer, he was drawing the (extra) power from ruin?

I assume that would have to be the case, because otherwise I don't see how any extra investiture could be obtained, to continue the compounding process.

And does compounding atium draw from ruin or preservation?

The "extra" power is from the difference between a mundane metal and a Godmetal which is pure condensed Investiture.  On the feruchemical side you are still using the Atium as just a Storage Device, while on the Allomantic side you are still obliterating the metal itself and converting it to pure Investiture.  The difference (as I currently understand it) is that burning a mundane metal only releases enough Investiture to create a conduit to Preservation's store of Infinite Investiture, while a godmetal has enough energy density to provide the entire effect.   That would be the case regardless of whether the Atium is being burned normally or if it was pre-charged by Feruchemy first to force that released Ruin energy to behave like Youth-Storage Investiture rather than Fortune-based Future Shadow Investiture. 

[Embrisk]

This is from the compounding copper discussion.

when you burn a metalmind you end up getting about 10x out of it as you put in.  most of the time you would then store most of this back into a new metalmind, which you can also later burn etc. the end result is thta if you can compound a metal, you have access to effectively infinite amounts of the trait you can store.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but it should be impossible to get 10x what you put in, if the power comes from the thing that holds the investiture you put in.

You would be creating investiture out of nothing.

 

Does @Calderis mean that atium allomancy to atium feruchemy has a natural 1:10 rate, but when your spirit web interferes, the efficiency is reduced to a 1:1 ratio?

 

 

You know, I think I'll just keep reading for now. I suppose the more I read, the more I'll understand this.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Servillius

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Servillius said:

when you burn a metalmind you end up getting about 10x out of it as you put in.  most of the time you would then store most of this back into a new metalmind, which you can also later burn etc. the end result is thta if you can compound a metal, you have access to effectively infinite amounts of the trait you can store.

The "tenfold" that is the source of this is from Alloy of Law, and it's not a hard measurement. It's just a number that's thrown out. Kind of waxing poetic. If it is ten times... Then atium is by far an exception. I'll get to that in just a moment. 

1 hour ago, Servillius said:

Maybe I'm just missing something, but it should be impossible to get 10x what you put in, if the power comes from the thing that holds the investiture you put in.

You would be creating investiture out of nothing.

OK, you not creating investiture out of nothing. You've stored a Feruchemical charge in the metal, which shapes the effect when burned, just like with normal compounding. But your literally converting the condensed Physical essence of a Shard back into usable Investiture. That adds up to a lot more than ten times. A small bag of atium is how Marsh has survived. 

Quote

Kirrin

Marsh? The book doesn't mention him after he fights with Elend.

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh is alive. I changed this from when I talked to [Peter]. I realized some things about his use of Allomancy that would allow him to survive. Actually, he is immortal. He can pull off the same Allomancy/Feruchemy trick that the Lord Ruler did. (And he knows it too, since he was there when Sazed explained how it was done in Book One.) He's actually the only living person who actually knows this trick for certain. (Though there's a chance that Spook, Ham and Breeze heard about it from Vin and the others.) So yes, if there were another series, Marsh would make an appearance.

Douglas

I thought that trick required atium and involved burning the atium. With all the atium gone and Sazed not making any more, it would therefore not be possible even for a full mistborn/feruchemist. Am I wrong, is Sazed providing atium specifically for Marsh to allow a friend and valuable servant to survive, or what?

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh has the bag of Atium that KanPaar sent to be sold, as well as several nuggets in his stomach. So, I guess 'immortal' is the wrong phrase. He's got the only remaining atium in the world and can keep himself around for a long, long while—but he WILL eventually run out. Unless Sazed does something.

Footnote: Brandon had earlier told Peter that in his mind, Marsh was dead having been "burned out by the sun"
source

 

[Embrisk]

I'm always blown away by @Calderis answers.

They're so simple.

[Quantus]

No, even with godmetals the burned metal is still creating conduit to the Shard's infinite store of energy in the Spiritual Realm. The Compounding hack is all about plugging that Allomantic power Conduit into the feruchemical side of the systems, so if your spiritweb has the ability to do Feruchemcial stuff with that Godmetal and also can create the allomantic Conduit with it, the trick still works.  The biggest qualitative difference is that in the case of Atium the conduit goes to Ruin rather than defaulting to Preservation. 

It is worth noting that it does not work right out of the box with any godmetal, they have to be "Plugged In" to Scadrial and the Metallic Arts sufficiently for their metal to have both an Allomantic and Feruchemical function.