Dova

[+Child of Hodor]

I know Dova has been covered before, but I didn't find a thread that reconciled all the information we have. I really think Dova is Pailiah. 

At the end of Oathbringer, when Taravangian is "confessing" to Dalinar he says that an ardent, Dova, came to him and warned him of the desolation coming. Mr. T says he suspects she is a Herald, Battah'Elin. 

But we have a WoB: Pailiah She has made an appearance as "the old ardent in the Palanaeum".^[3]  

They're both pretending to be ardents in the same library? Granted it's a BIG library and Dova probably spends most of her time in the secret kill rooms, not the library. But could Mr. T be wrong or lying about which Herald she is? Dova is not identified on screen by name. There is a Silent Gatherer writing down a death rattle at the end of WoK when Szeth visits Mr. T, but she is not described at all physically. We don't know if Dova is "old" looking or not. 

Now we know Mr. T is lying to Dalinar about how he found out about the impending desolation and he's lying about when Dova joined the Diagram. She joined after she figured out they were killing people to get the death rattles and offered to help. The Diagram was already off and running. 

Quote

The Diagram, and its members, knew no boundaries. Dova had discovered their work on her own, and they'd needed to either induct her or assassinate her - WoR I-14 Taravangian

(Good luck with killing her, idiot) Mr. T found out about the impending desolation because Gavilar told him about the visions he was getting and his task to unite the world.

Quote

He had taken his first major step in unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive. That was, at least, what the visions had procalimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago - WoR I-14 Taravangian

Very minor reference in the interlude where Dova is discussed. Could be a little clue, Pailiah is referred to, but Battar is not. 

Quote

"Pali's mind," Adrotagia said, watching them rise. "I don't believe it." WoR I-14 Taravangian

 

 

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014) #2

Argent

Vedel... Pali, for Pailiah?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, I think Pali (ˈpæli) is the nickname in that case.

I think it fits more for Pailiah, the Herald of the Truthwatchers, to be the one in the secret hospital killing poor and family-less patients. Truthwatchers have regrowth and the truthwatchers we've met like Ym and Stump were healing the poor and family-less for free. From what we've seen of the Heralds who abandoned their oaths their madness often is a perversion or inversion of what they were supposed to stand for. Shallash Herald of Beauty and Art destroys art now, Nale of Justice twists the law to allow him to kill people he already wants to kill for other reasons. And so on. Pailiah being Dova fits that inversion well.  

As to why Mr. T said he thinks she's Battah'Elin, maybe he really thinks she is. As shown above she came to him after he had his day of singular brilliance, so maybe he figured out she was a Herald, but was wrong about which one she actually is. He could be lying, but that's an odd lie. Unless it's something Pailiah / Dova asked him to lie about. The Truthwatcher Herald asking people to tell lies. 

Maybe there are two Heralds at the library, maybe they both really like reading. Battar is the Elsecaller Herald, maybe she's scholarly like Jasnah. As for Pailiah: ^"The Palanaeum was named for Pailiah the Herald. In fact, it was named based off the Greek word "Athenaeum".^[5]" 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Ashertliden]

Good theory, first thing I would say in opposition is that Battar represents Wisdom and Care, so Kharbranth, center of learning and medicine, seems to be a place she would spend her time. Furthermore, Pailiah represents Learned and Giving, so I would also expect her to be at Kharbranth. The corruption of the heralds due to their insanity I believe would make Battar a more likely candidate for Dova, as she is attaining wisdom through a perverted use of healing knowledge. At this point, both seem likely candidates, and I expect that eventually we will RAFO.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I still don’t see why Brandon would have Taravangian drop a false Herald reveal at the end of OB. The fact that it comes when it does (at the end of the book) from a source we trust when it comes to Herald-identification, makes it look like a reveal. I don’t think Brandon fakes things like that just to mess with us. 

Dova is Battar.

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I still don’t see why Brandon would have Taravangian drop a false Herald reveal at the end of OB. The fact that it comes when it does (at the end of the book) from a source we trust when it comes to Herald-identification, makes it look like a reveal. I don’t think Brandon fakes things like that just to mess with us. 

Dova is Battar.

I agree it's a really weird thing to lie about. But most everything else in his confession was also a lie. My only justification for it is that Pailiah, as the Truthwatcher Herald, is now into spreading lies. 

14 hours ago, Kal-Eldin said:

Good theory, first thing I would say in opposition is that Battar represents Wisdom and Care, so Kharbranth, center of learning and medicine, seems to be a place she would spend her time. Furthermore, Pailiah represents Learned and Giving, so I would also expect her to be at Kharbranth. The corruption of the heralds due to their insanity I believe would make Battar a more likely candidate for Dova, as she is attaining wisdom through a perverted use of healing knowledge. At this point, both seem likely candidates, and I expect that eventually we will RAFO.

Caring does fit. I was just thinking that back when she had her Honorblade Pailiah would be actually healing others all the time and she would have been one of the field medics and hanging around hospitals a lot, while Battar would not have that surgebinding ability. 

Pailiah as Learned & Giving could be inverted because she is now learning Death Rattles by Taking life. Pailiah is now dedicated to getting glimpses of the future via the death rattles and future sight was a big Truthwatcher no-no (although at least one did)   "Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."  a particularly small emerald - OB Ch. 85 Epigraph 

One more minor thing, the people recording the death rattles are referred to as "Silent Gatherers" and "The Truthwatchers were silent and secretive most of the time." https://coppermind.net/wiki/Order_of_Truthwatchers

[NoiseSpren he/him]

Paliah works for Navani as ardent. (Rushu, I think???)

Edited October 23, 2018 by NoiseSpren

[+Child of Hodor]

4 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

Paliah works for Navani as ardent. (Rushu, I think???)

Brandon described Pailiah as the "old ardent":  "the old ardent in the Palanaeum".^[3] 

Rushu is the ardent who works for Navani, but she is described as young. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rushu

Quote

"Ah," said Rushu -- a young female ardent - OB Ch. 4 Taker of Secrets

[+Child of Hodor]

Double posting, kinda to update this thread from  couple weeks ago for a new WoB. Thanks @RShara for asking about Pailiah! He essentially RAFOs it.

He doesn't deny that Pailiah was at the Palaneum and he doesn't say which Herald Dova is. He does say there is only one Herald influencing Taravangian currently. This doesn't confirm my theory and it doesn't rule it out. The hesitant way he answers makes me think Dova is not Pailiah. 

It does confirm that there is only one Herald around Mr. T right now which I like better. I like the unmet Heralds being spread out doing different things in the background. Herald-spotting is fun!  

 

Quote

 

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)
#16

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

A long time ago, where you said that Pailiah was the elderly ardent in Kharbranth that Shallan saw, is that right?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes? If you say I said that, then I did.

Questioner 2 [PENDING REVIEW]

Does that mean it is still true?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's just say there is a Herald in close proximity to Taravangian.

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

It was in a signed book but we never got a picture of it.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There is a Herald in close proximity to Taravangian. I'm not being sneaky about that.

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

Is there more than one?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There have been in the past, but there is only one that you would call influencing him right now. But there have been others in the past.

 

 

 

[ScavellTane]

Its the maid.

[Ashertliden]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

Its the maid.

Are you thinking of when Shalash was posing as a maid?

 

[+Child of Hodor]

38 minutes ago, Kal-Eldin said:

Are you thinking of when Shalash was posing as a maid?

 

In WoK Shallan is trying to get the stolen soul caster to work in her room and she here’s someone outside. It’s an old woman who says she’s a maid. Shallan tells her the maids were told to stay out of Jasnah’s rooms.

The maid said she didn’t know and Shallan send the maid to apologize to Jasnah. 

That’s the only interaction Shallan has with an old woman at the Palaneum in WoK that I could find. 

It’s unclear if that old WoB is even correct since there was no photo and Brandon seems caught off guard by it. 

[Calderis he/him]

57 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

In WoK Shallan is trying to get the stolen soul caster to work in her room and she here’s someone outside. It’s an old woman who says she’s a maid. Shallan tells her the maids were told to stay out of Jasnah’s rooms.

The maid said she didn’t know and Shallan send the maid to apologize to Jasnah. 

That’s the only interaction Shallan has with an old woman at the Palaneum in WoK that I could find. 

It’s unclear if that old WoB is even correct since there was no photo and Brandon seems caught off guard by it. 

The old ardent that the pictureless WoB is referring to is this piece from Ch. 33 of tWoK. 

Quote

A light flickering through nearby bookcases startled her, and she tucked away her folio. It turned out to be just an old, berobed female ardent, shuffling with a lantern and followed by a parshman servant. She didn’t look in Shallan’s direction as she turned between two rows of shelves, her lantern’s light shining out through the spaces between the books. Lit that way—with her figure hidden but the light streaming between the shelves—it looked as if one of the Heralds themselves were walking through the stacks.

 

[+Child of Hodor]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The old ardent that the pictureless WoB is referring to is this piece from Ch. 33 of tWoK. 

 

Thank you! I missed it when I was looking for it even with search feature. Ardent comes up a lot . 

So that must be Dova, given Brandon said there is only 1 herald hanging around Mr. T right now. The passage even mentions she looks like a Herald.

Mr. T says Dova is an ardent and he thinks Dova is a herald.

I am back on the Pailiah train (choo-choo!) for the reasons stated in this thread. 

Don’t feel great that we don’t have a photo of what Brandon wrote and Brandon being surprised, maybe he forgot that he let that slip. 

[Patrick Star]

On 11/10/2018 at 11:37 AM, Kal-Eldin said:

Are you thinking of when Shalash was posing as a maid?

It's actually an Attack on Titan reference

Spoiler

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think this new WoB confirms the fact that  Battar is Dova. There is a Herald near Mr T, he has no reason to lie about her identity, and Brandon has no reason to give us the wrong Herald in-book. 

[+Child of Hodor]

19 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think this new WoB confirms the fact that  Battar is Dova. There is a Herald near Mr T, he has no reason to lie about her identity, and Brandon has no reason to give us the wrong Herald in-book. 

Yeah, I'm waffling back in forth, but that's the simplest answer. Mr. T does lie about a bunch of other stuff in that conversation with Dalinar, but I guess he was hiding that he went to the Nightwatcher and that Gavilar was getting the visions. To lie about Dova doesn't serve that purpose, only reason would be if the Truthwatcher Herald wanted him to lie. 

If that's the case I hope the original WoB we don't have a photo of saying Pailiah was the old woman in the library is wrong. I don't like having two female Heralds posing as ardents in Karbranth. Spread them out and preserve the mystery for a while longer. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[TacticalShardSpork]

I’m rereading WoR and am at the Taravangian interlude. I noticed that heraldic symbols at the beginning of the chapter are of Jezrien and Pailiah. I would think that given how Sanderson selects the heraldic symbols and how much T discusses Dova in this chapter that we have some additional support for the herald in Kharbranth being Pailiah and not Battar. 

Also, I’m not sure if this would be considered necro-ing the thread. I was trying to find out whether it had been argued that T gave Dalinar bad information at the end of Oathbringer, and this thread isn’t that old and discusses that.