Are the Honorblades *technically* Spren?

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

I was just wondering, would the Honorblades technically qualify as non-sentient Spren, at least by the extremely broad definition Rosharans use? I would have said no, but Brandon has said that even Nightblood qualifies, and it’s technically nothing more than a normal sword that had a crap-ton of Endowment’s Investiture pumped into it, whereas the Honorblades are basically incarnate Investiture of Honor. So wouldn’t they technically qualify as ‘Spren’ as well, at least inasmuch as Nightblood and Vivenna’s sword does?

[Calderis he/him]

I don't think so. The Rosharan definition for spren basically translates to "investiture that is alive" even if thats not the terms they use. 

The Honorblades are investiture, but they're inanimate objects without a living mind.

I'm sure that they'd think that they have a spren like everything else though. Which isn't inaccurate if you call the Cognitive aspects of objects spren.

Rosharan classification is storming stupid. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I don't think so. The Rosharan definition for spren basically translates to "investiture that is alive" even if thats not the terms they use. 

The Honorblades are investiture, but they're inanimate objects without a living mind.

I'm sure that they'd think that they have a spren like everything else though. Which isn't inaccurate if you call the Cognitive aspects of objects spren.

Rosharan classification is storming stupid. 

The only problem is that not all Spren DO have a mind, in fact the overwhelming majority of them do not. So in of itself that is not really a necessary quality. I dunno, like you've said, the Rosharan system is so vague as to be effectively useless in many respects. 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

The only problem is that not all Spren DO have a mind, in fact the overwhelming majority of them do not.

I disagree. They aren't sapient, but they move and act in the same way that animals do. 

Take an animal and remove its need to reproduce and eat, and make it drawn to a specific stimuli. Lose the physical body. Viola, spren.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. They aren't sapient, but they move and act in the same way that animals do. 

Take an animal and remove its need to reproduce and eat, and make it drawn to a specific stimuli. Lose the physical body. Viola, spren.

Fair enough, I guess it largely depends on what you mean by ‘think’. I always thought of the non-sentient Spren, or at least some of them, more as mindless forces just following the rules imposed by their natures than semi-sentient animalistic beings. Though I suppose at least some of them probably have cognition comparable to higher mammals.

[Yezrien]

New theory: the Honorblades are spren, but they were born (created) as something equivalent to deadeyes. When the new Radiants figure out how to revive dead blades, they’ll also awaken the Honorblades for the first time.

[+hwiles]

According to the Rosharn definition, my understanding is that everything either has a spren, or is itself a spren. That includes both abstract concepts, states of mind, fundamental forces acting on objects, and literal pieces of matter and living beings. Considering the amount of Investiture dumped into them, if the honorblades were spren my instinct is that they would be much more talkative with their user. I posit then that they are not spren however, common understanding would then dictate that they have a spren which may or may not itself be intelligent.

Whether spren have spren is a topic best left to the scholars.

For those still reading, the whole concept of spren falls apart when examined closely...

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Well if they aren’t Spren, I think at the very least they would certainly qualify as Splinters of some kind, since they are basically distilled manifestations of Honor’s Investiture.

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Well if they aren’t Spren, I think at the very least they would certainly qualify as Splinters of some kind, since they are basically distilled manifestations of Honor’s Investiture.

They are chunks of Honor's Investiture. There's no question that they're splinters. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Honestly, I still question whether Nightblood should be considered a Spren if the Honorblades aren't though. Sure, Nightblood is at least somewhat sapient whereas the Honorblades at least seem to be mindless. But on the other hand, all Nightblood essentially is is an ordinary steel sword that had a ton of Endowment's Investiture infused into it. It's a physical object that had Investiture (or perhaps a Splinter) put into it, it isn't Investiture manifested in the physical form of a blade like the Shard and Honorblades are. So calling it a 'Spren' seems questionable to me; I personally think it belongs in a category of its own. Because the thing is, regardless of whether it's sentient or not, the Honorblades have much more in common with Sprenblades than they do with Nightblood in terms of their essential natures. 

[Spoolofwhool]

Rosharans would call him a spren because he's sentient and isn't nor wasn't biologically alive. For the greater Cosmere scholars, he wouldn't qualify as a spren.

[+Child of Hodor]

They don’t seem to have sapience and there is no evidence they ever did.  I’m sure there are secrets about the blades yet to be revealed over the next 7 books, but I don’t think they are spren.

The Heralds themselves are closer to being spren than their blades. (The Heralds aren’t Spren)

[Leyrann]

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

For those still reading, the whole concept of spren falls apart when examined closely...

I'm looking forward to the day Rosharan scholars find out themselves.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Rosharans would call him a spren because he's sentient and isn't nor wasn't biologically alive. For the greater Cosmere scholars, he wouldn't qualify as a spren.

It’s a little like classifying both bats, birds, flying insects and pterosaurs in the same group simply because all of them are able to perform true flight, never mind the fact that they couldn’t be much more different otherwise. That’s a common theme I’ve noticed in the Cosmere, but especially on Roshar (spoiler: Roshar does NOT have ‘plants’ or ‘crustaceans’, at least not native to Roshar. Some of their flora and fauna just superficially resemble them). As a biologist, that’s always been a beef of mine. Even though Roshar is arguably the most scientifically advanced world other than Scadrial, they have some of the dumbest classification conventions I’ve ever seen.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Leyrann]

16 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

It’s a little like classifying both bats, birds, flying insects and pterosaurs in the same group simply because all of them are able to perform true flight, never mind the fact that they couldn’t be much more different otherwise. That’s a common theme I’ve noticed in the Cosmere, but especially on Roshar (spoiler: Roshar does NOT have ‘plants’ or ‘crustaceans’, at least not native to Roshar. Some of their flora and fauna just superficially resemble them). As a biologist, that’s always been a beef of mine. Even though Roshar is arguably the most scientifically advanced world other than Scadrial, they have some of the dumbest classification conventions I’ve ever seen.

I would argue that Roshar's plants have to at least be similar to our plants, as otherwise they wouldn't be able to provide nutrients for humans. Heck, there's plenty of actual plants that have a hard time doing that or may just get us killed for other reasons.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

I would argue that Roshar's plants have to at least be similar to our plants, as otherwise they wouldn't be able to provide nutrients for humans. Heck, there's plenty of actual plants that have a hard time doing that or may just get us killed for other reasons.

That can be handwaved just by saying that Adonalsium wanted it that way; biologically, there is absolutely no way that Singers and humans should be able to successfully hybridize, especially considering that don’t even have the same biochemistry. 

[+Child of Hodor]

43 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

That can be handwaved just by saying that Adonalsium wanted it that way; biologically, there is absolutely no way that Singers and humans should be able to successfully hybridize, especially considering that don’t even have the same biochemistry. 

Yeah, red blood and moldy-smelling orange blood shouldn't mix . Magic handwave, it's either Adonalsium's doing or Cultivation experimenting. There is a surprising amount of humanoid variety considering humans have been on the planet for 6,000 years maybe a little longer and were completely isolated in Shinovar for a time after they arrived.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, red blood and moldy-smelling orange blood shouldn't mix . Magic handwave, it's either Adonalsium's doing or Cultivation experimenting. There is a surprising amount of humanoid variety considering humans have been on the planet for 6,000 years maybe a little longer and were completely isolated in Shinovar for a time after they arrived.

Agreed. That’s literally not even a blink of an eye as far as evolutionary timescales are concerned. Most likely it’s Cultivation’s handiwork in some way.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Scion of the Mists]

13 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Honestly, I still question whether Nightblood should be considered a Spren if the Honorblades aren't though. Sure, Nightblood is at least somewhat sapient whereas the Honorblades at least seem to be mindless. But on the other hand, all Nightblood essentially is is an ordinary steel sword that had a ton of Endowment's Investiture infused into it. It's a physical object that had Investiture (or perhaps a Splinter) put into it, it isn't Investiture manifested in the physical form of a blade like the Shard and Honorblades are. So calling it a 'Spren' seems questionable to me; I personally think it belongs in a category of its own. Because the thing is, regardless of whether it's sentient or not, the Honorblades have much more in common with Sprenblades than they do with Nightblood in terms of their essential natures. 

It is reasonable to consider Nightblood a spren because he is sapient, even if he's not Rosharan in origin.  Shardblades are obviously spren; they too are sapient.  The Honorblades, by contrast, are neither sapient nor sentient.  They're just a hunk of Honor's Investiture.  

 

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

It’s a little like classifying both bats, birds, flying insects and pterosaurs in the same group simply because all of them are able to perform true flight, never mind the fact that they couldn’t be much more different otherwise. That’s a common theme I’ve noticed in the Cosmere, but especially on Roshar (spoiler: Roshar does NOT have ‘plants’ or ‘crustaceans’, at least not native to Roshar. Some of their flora and fauna just superficially resemble them). As a biologist, that’s always been a beef of mine. Even though Roshar is arguably the most scientifically advanced world other than Scadrial, they have some of the dumbest classification conventions I’ve ever seen.

All four of those are very similar in that they're all flying, sentient, living animals.  By contrast, something like an airplane still flies, but is not sentient, and in fact has never been alive.  This is basically the difference between Nightblood/shardblads and Honorblades.  

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

It’s a little like classifying both bats, birds, flying insects and pterosaurs in the same group simply because all of them are able to perform true flight, never mind the fact that they couldn’t be much more different otherwise. That’s a common theme I’ve noticed in the Cosmere, but especially on Roshar (spoiler: Roshar does NOT have ‘plants’ or ‘crustaceans’, at least not native to Roshar. Some of their flora and fauna just superficially resemble them). As a biologist, that’s always been a beef of mine. Even though Roshar is arguably the most scientifically advanced world other than Scadrial, they have some of the dumbest classification conventions I’ve ever seen.

Yeah, and that's what the general Alethi society does at least. All small things are cremlings, all alcoholic drinks are wines, all birds are chickens. As far as they're concerned, all sentient investiture entities, including shards, would be spren. However, I'm pretty sure the scholars have better ways of classifying things that we haven't seen. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

All four of those are very similar in that they're all flying, sentient, living animals.  By contrast, something like an airplane still flies, but is not sentient, and in fact has never been alive.  This is basically the difference between Nightblood/shardblads and Honorblades.  

Yes, they are superficially similar, but fundamentally very different. Not to get on a soapbox, but that’s the difference between the old antiquated Linnaean taxonomic system which was pretty much entirely based on superficial similarities (though to be fair it did get it pretty close, albeit accidentally), and the modern cladistic system which deals in fundamentals. 

[Scion of the Mists]

20 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yes, they are superficially similar, but fundamentally very different. Not to get on a soapbox, but that’s the difference between the old antiquated Linnaean taxonomic system which was pretty much entirely based on superficial similarities (though to be fair it did get it pretty close, albeit accidentally), and the modern cladistic system which deals in fundamentals. 

I think that the difference between a living creature and a machine is fundamentally more different that between a mammal and a bird.  

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

It is reasonable to consider Nightblood a spren because he is sapient, even if he's not Rosharan in origin.  Shardblades are obviously spren; they too are sapient.  The Honorblades, by contrast, are neither sapient nor sentient.  They're just a hunk of Honor's Investiture.  

 

He's closer to a spren than the Honorblades are because of his sapience. He can also bond in a way, but not in the same way as Spren. It seems like he just bonds whoever holds him, like the honorblades do. 

 

Quote

 

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)
#5 

Argent (paraphrased)

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

Quote

 

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)
#3Sept. 7, 2018 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I want to know if Nightblood can be killed in the same way as a spren.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, that's a RAFO. Nightblood does not have the same spren bond, and so the renouncing of Oaths is not going to affect him, but there are certain things that could

 

 

 

I think the difference to me is Nightblood was a blade first and always a blade. He was their attempt to make shardblade, they weren't interested in the Spren part of it. Spren are cognitive beings made of investiture whose natural home is the cognitive realm and some of them saw the Honorblades and, with great difficulty, emulated them. But the blade is not their natural state, it's just a thing some of them can do. I'd lean more towards calling Nightblood a robot-spren or something if he was taken into the cognitive realm and he had a different form there like we saw with Adolin's blade.

If he does have a form there I say it is creepy boarding school / orphan boy:

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

6 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I think that the difference between a living creature and a machine is fundamentally more different that between a mammal and a bird.  

I agree, but I’m not quite sure what your point is. The point I was making was that it annoyed me that Brandon uses the label ‘Spren’ to refer to two (at least) entirely different types of beings, making it a ‘polyphyletic’ classification so to speak: fully cognitive entities that inhabit Shadesmar, and what basically amounts to enchanted physical objects that just happen to be sapient. I realize that this frustration stems largely from my scientific background in biology, in which rigorous classification is essential, but if nothing else I think Brandon could have at least differentiated things as different in concept as these.

If you want to relegate ‘Spren’ to only refer to cognitive entities that have some measure of cognition, that’s fine. But Nightblood does not match even that. Like I said, he’s just an enchanted sword. Nightblood might CONTAIN a Spren, but I can’t see how one can meaningfully say that he IS a Spren. At least not without making the term so nebulous as to be effectively meaningless.

[Subvisual Haze]

Chunks of investiture can manifest sentience if left alone for long enough periods of time through methods we don't really understand.  I think in WOBs though it has been implied the Stormfather (and likely Cultivation/Nightwatcher) somehow help give birth to the sentience of higher spren and that this is a method to relieve the dangerous excess investiture sloshing around Roshar after Honor's death (preventing a similar situation to the uncontrolled magical energy on Sel).

Outside of Taln's honorblade (and perhaps Nale's), the other honorblade's have not been fulfilling their purposes for the last couple millenia.  They have been guarded and lightly used by the Shin at best.  Perhaps the other honorblades are almost at the point where they could manifest sentience in the near future under the right circumstances?