Odium is trying to end oathpact

[Ashertliden]

This may have been theorized before, but I haven't seen it yet so here goes:

Wob's have shown the oathpact isn't broken:

Spoiler

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Brandon Sanderson

You will see more of-- the Oathpact is not completely broken, the others are still bound to the Oathpact.

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Questioner

Are all of the Heralds still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

The Oathpact has not been broken, so yes.

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, indeed.

Etc.

We also know that Odium has been trapped on Braize, and his bondage has something to do with the oathpact:

Spoiler

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Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

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Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

 

My theory is that Odium will attempt to get free by destroying the heralds, and consequently, the Oathpact. To do so, he will use perfect gemstones that correspond to each Herald. (Sapphire for Jezrien, Heliodor for Ishar etc.) I believe he is obtaining said gemstones from the cognitive realm, where spren use them to store stormlight, but they could also come from the stone of ten dawns, which would correspond to the ten heralds. Regardless, I believe Odium will attempt to use Vyre's knife to eliminate all of the heralds, storing their investiture/souls in perfect gemstones. This also adds to the theory that Vyre's knife is a dawnshard "known to bind any creature voids or mortal," as the knife may "bind" the herald in the perfect gemstones, which has been implied as possible by Brandon.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what we see at the end, with the Unmade, and it seems like Jezrien, getting trapped in gems. Is that basically possible, because, they have been, particularly in the case of the Heralds, infused with so much Investiture that they're basically being trapped in the gems instead of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They're not human anymore, yeah. 

TL;DR: Odium is using perfect gemstones to bind the heralds, which will help to end the oathpact, freeing him.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Kal-Eldin

[Calderis he/him]

I don't disagree that he is trying to trap the Heralds for some reason. Though Odium's binding, as one of the WoBs you posted says, is greater than the Oathpact. The Oathpact binds the Fused, and so indirectly binds him by thwarting his minions efforts to win the war and allow him to break free. 

Whatever bound him was the work of Honor and Cultivation per the Stormfather. 

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THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION.

Add to this, that after being bound for as long as he has been, he's been unavoidably invested in Braize, even if that original binding is no longer holding him, it would now take effort for him to divest from Braize in order to leave, and in doing so he would most likely expose himself to attack from Cultivation. 

At this point, I believe he needs to Splinter Cultivation in order to be able to divest. 

Capturing the Heralds, at minimum is a backup so that if the Everstorm is somehow thwarted the Fused will remain unfettered. I think there's more to it than that, but we have no clues towards what that goal is. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Calderis

[Ashertliden]

Yes, but the Heralds and the Oathpact do make up a part of the bondage.

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Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Splintering Cultivation will obviously play a large part in Odium's long-term plans, but I believe the capturing the Heralds in the perfect gemstones will aid in either releasing him or winning the battle for control of Roshar. Even if Odium was simply eliminating the Heralds to undermine the religion of the Rosharan people, the loss of the Heralds will have a decidedly negative impact for Roshar. 

The Heralds were massively powerful, being able to "glow like the sun, wield the Honorblads and speak with the voices of a thousand trumpets. They could cast down buildings with a command, force the storms to obey, and heal with a touch," according to Shallan. Their power and experience, if the Heralds somehow were healed of their madness would be able provide a great amount of aid against Odium's forces. Being able to eliminate this possibility and somehow aid in crippling his bondage would seem to be a logical next step to Odium's plans.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Kal-Eldin

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Kal-Eldin said:

Even if Odium was simply eliminating the Heralds to undermine the religion of the Rosharan people, the loss of the Heralds will have a decidedly negative impact for Roshar. 

Exposing their betrayal is enough for this. 

1 hour ago, Kal-Eldin said:

The Heralds were massively powerful, being able to "glow like the sun, wield the Honorblads and speak with the voices of a thousand trumpets. They could cast down buildings with a command, force the storms to obey, and heal with a touch," according to Shallan.

The keyword here is were. They were fed directly by Honor, which meant they had access to far more raw power than a Radiant can possibly achieve... But Honor is Splintered. 

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WindRunner88 [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

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Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

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There's also the issue that almost all of the WoBs (might actually be all, but I haven't checked dates) that we have concerning the Oathpact and Odium's binding are prior to OB. Text trumps WoBs according to Brandon, and the Stormfather tells us that the Oathpact bound the Fused like Cultivation and Honor bound Odium.

[TrдVψLшR 0115 he/him]

@Kal-Eldin ur on the right track with the heralds being made up of investiture. IMO they are cognitive shadows. 

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

At this point, I believe he needs to Splinter Cultivation in order to be able to divest.

Then you got to ask why Cultivation is not ready to make a deal. Why is she risking herself, if she could force the other shards to join the conflict?

[Ashertliden]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Then you got to ask why Cultivation is not ready to make a deal. Why is she risking herself, if she could force the other shards to join the conflict?

Odium's end goal is to splinter Cultivation, so making a deal would be tough. In the words of Ronalsium Reagan, "We will not negotiate with hatred incarnate"

Edited October 14, 2018 by Kal-Eldin

[TrдVψLшR 0115 he/him]

@Oltux72  I don’t know that Cultivation could do that. They seem to be bound by rules we havent fully seen yet. Not to mention different motives. In fact they don’t seem to trust each other very much anyways

Edited October 14, 2018 by PelekinikeleT

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, Kal-Eldin said:

In the words of Ronalsium Reagan, "We will not negotiate with hatred incarnate"

Iran-Contra? Odium would score two goals with one ball. If, however, Cultivation offered him freedom at the cost of sparing her, Odium would need to choose. If he declined, he would lose time at least. Granted he does not age. But his enemies, the other shards, would gain time to grow stronger.

[Ashertliden]

37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

he would lose time at least.

I believe the Stormfather said something along the lines of "Odium does not mind the loss of time, but to humans it is the most valuable thing." That may be phrased completely incorrectly. Regardless, I doubt Odium would negotiate with Cultivation in the first place. He seems to believe that he will win the fight for Roshar, and if he doesn't he can simply keep waiting. However, since the Heralds are functionally immortal, and that they have stopped many desolations, preventing their return/aid them should be one of Odium's top priorities. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Kal-Eldin

[Ripheus23]

Szeth and Kaladin will become new Heralds to replace at least two who will have permanently died by the close of SA5...? (Szeth:::Ishar, Kaladin:::Jezrien?)

[Ashertliden]

36 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Szeth and Kaladin will become new Heralds to replace at least two who will have permanently died by the close of SA5...? (Szeth:::Ishar, Kaladin:::Jezrien?)

1.) Why do you assume Ishar is going to die?

2.) Why do you assume Szeth and Kaladin will become new Heralds, or if that is even possible?

3.) Even if this was so, why would Szeth, a Skybreaker, become a herald of the bondsmiths?

[Calderis he/him]

@Oltux72 Cultivation can "force" the other shards to do nothing.

@Ripheus23 replacing members of the Oathpact serves what purpose? If the Everstorm is not dealt with, the Fused don't return to Braize to be held back to begin with, and if it is... Then you go right back to the cycle of desolations.

It solves nothing. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Then you go right back to the cycle of desolations.

It solves nothing. 

A cycle of desolations is still better than being wiped out immediately. If they want to be permanently saved I see two options

 

1. kill Odium
2. pull a Taravangian and let Odium leave without him killing you. To a limited extent he is willing to do the deal.
   If soundly defeatted once he may be more inclined to deal.

[Scion of the Mists]

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

Add to this, that after being bound for as long as he has been, he's been unavoidably invested in Braize, even if that original binding is no longer holding him, it would now take effort for him to divest from Braize in order to leave, and in doing so he would most likely expose himself to attack from Cultivation. 

At this point, I believe he needs to Splinter Cultivation in order to be able to divest. 

More support for this theory: when Dalinar almost (but not really) releases Odium from his bonds, he explicitly says that, if released, his next step would be to take out Cultivation.  

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

More support for this theory: when Dalinar almost (but not really) releases Odium from his bonds, he explicitly says that, if released, his next step would be to take out Cultivation.  

Exactly. As the "representative of Honor" he has the ability to unilaterally free Odium, if he so chooses. I doubt doing so would end the Oathpact in itself. 

[RShara she/her]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

A cycle of desolations is still better than being wiped out immediately. If they want to be permanently saved I see two options

 

1. kill Odium
2. pull a Taravangian and let Odium leave without him killing you. To a limited extent he is willing to do the deal.
   If soundly defeatted once he may be more inclined to deal.

The thing is--First, the Fused don't return to Braize when they are killed, so having a Herald or 10 on Braize wouldn't do anything. Second, Honor is dead, so it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to figure out how to make a new Herald at all. Third, having the 5th book, which is supposed to be the end of the first set of books, end on what's basically a cliffhanger, I think is a bad idea, thematically. The first 5 are supposed to have their own arc and conclusion. Renewing the Oathpact is a stalling tactic at best, if it's even possible, and I don't think it'd be a satisfactory conclusion to the first arc.

We know there's only going to be 15-20 years between book 5 and 6, so unless any new Heralds are really weak, they would last much longer than that.

[+Child of Hodor]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

The thing is--First, the Fused don't return to Braize when they are killed, so having a Herald or 10 on Braize wouldn't do anything. Second, Honor is dead, so it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to figure out how to make a new Herald at all. Third, having the 5th book, which is supposed to be the end of the first set of books, end on what's basically a cliffhanger, I think is a bad idea, thematically. The first 5 are supposed to have their own arc and conclusion. Renewing the Oathpact is a stalling tactic at best, if it's even possible, and I don't think it'd be a satisfactory conclusion to the first arc.

We know there's only going to be 15-20 years between book 5 and 6, so unless any new Heralds are really weak, they would last much longer than that.

Yeah. 

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Kalak shook his head. "He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will." WoK Prelude

The Everstorm was Odium's way around the Oathpact. We don't exactly how the Everstorm works mechanically, but the result is the Fused come right back through the storm. 

I think they killed Jezrien in a special way with the gemstone because they want to make use of his sword and not because Odium is worried about the Oathpact. If he died normally the sword would presumably go back with him to Braize automatically and it is still Jezrien's blade, so if on some off chance he snapped out of his insanity he could summon the blade to himself.  It would be a real problem for Vyre if Jezrien happened to die while Vyre was in combat and the blade Vyre was wielding disappeared. 

 

[Ripheus23]

21 hours ago, Kal-Eldin said:

1.) Why do you assume Ishar is going to die?

2.) Why do you assume Szeth and Kaladin will become new Heralds, or if that is even possible?

3.) Even if this was so, why would Szeth, a Skybreaker, become a herald of the bondsmiths?

1. It would be a decent boss battle for the first 5-book arc.

2. Szeth and Kaladin thematically would work well as Ishar- and Taln-like fellows. Beyond that, no reason, except I like this meme:

3. I have no idea

EDIT:

But in any event...

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Honor is dead, so it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to figure out how to make a new Herald at all.

IDK, Dalinar just flashed a perpendicularity into being out of nowhere, it took Sazed mere moments to figure out how to intentionally move his entire planet through space, etc. If a protagonist picked up Honor it might not be that hard to figure Herald-sealing out. Especially if it's like a mere-verbal-agreement issue, or routed through the Honorblades.

As for...

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... replacing members of the Oathpact serves what purpose? If the Everstorm is not dealt with, the Fused don't return to Braize to be held back to begin with, and if it is... Then you go right back to the cycle of desolations.

The new Heralds might have new powers. Szeth might have Nightblood, after all.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Ripheus23