Caevita he/him Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 I can already tell this is one of those theories that I come up with in the middle of the night, post on the shard, then wake up the next morning and wonder what I was thinking. However. I was thinking about the screams that Dalinar and Szeth hear, the screams-- according to them, anyway-- of the people they have killed. And Evi's voice during Dalinar's confrontation with Odium suggests that Dalinar and Szeth are right about the origin of the screams. Which seems very odd to me. Their victims did not hold any meaningful amount of Investiture, which I believe is the requirement for cognitive shadow shenanigans everywhere except possibly Threnody. Then I got to thinking of the Fused, who I had assumed were also cognitive shadows of some description, able to stick around and inhabit body after body. However, I believe they are referred to (citation needed) as the "spirits of the slain." This could be a reference to the fact that they have by now died repeatedly, but it might also mean they were slain before they became psychopathic pseudo-spren. And then I started thinking about the Vorin belief that there is a war going on to take back the Tranquiline Halls. So naturally, my mind which, much like a particularly dim Taravangian, should not be trusted right now, has concluded that the Vorin belief of being locked out of "heaven" originated with the inability of the dead to move on to the Beyond. At all. Or maybe only when they are the victims of violent deaths? Anyway, thoughts? Has this already been brought up? Am I about to get slapped down by like three different WoB's? Or will I have to wait until the next book comes out to be proven wrong?
earthexile Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 I like what you're thinking, now add this: We know that some of the early myths about Voidbringers and such, were actually about Humans. Humans who, somehow, have damaged the Parsh in such a way that their souls remain bound to a cycle of violence. Maybe they're the ones who got kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls, they are the Dawnsingers after all.
galendo Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 Seems vaguely plausible, but I don't really see it happening for meta-reasons. Namely, if Brandon were going to actually play up the whole "something is wrong with the afterlife" idea, he had a much better opportunity to do so with the Knights Radiant, Braize, and the Recreance/Oathpact (basically, by making the KR go to Braize and get tortured along with the Heralds). So plausible, but not likely.
Calderis he/him Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 I think the screams are just Spiritual remnants that Szeth and Dalinar are connecting to. No actual Cognitive aspect there. Quote Argent Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture? Brandon Sanderson Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm. Oversleep Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)? Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. source I think that "Evi's" forgiveness of Dalinar wasn't actually her. It was her Spiritual corpse interacting with him having finally reached a place that he could forgive himself. 1
+Child of Hodor Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 I think there may be multiple elements at work, although both are ultimately spiritual realm connections. The voices of Szeth and Dalinar's victims are one thing. Dalinar having strange dreams of Gavilar as a child and Nohadon shopping are another. and possibly hearing Evi forgive him could be another. I think Dalinar is connected to the spiritual realm more than the average person because of his connection to the Stormfather who absorbed the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast who was the Vessel for the Shard Honor. Shards are mostly in the spiritual realm even if the Vessels cannot directly access the spiritual realm themselves. Dalinar ---> Stormfather ----> Tanavast ----> Honor ----> Spiritual Realm. I think he hears Evi for the same reason he has the dream of Gavilar as a child in WoR and of Nohadon shopping in OB. Quote "Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He started at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. He knew it well. WoR Ch. 89 The Four pg. 2679 in iBooks Quote "Soft sunlight shone through an open balcony on the far side of the room, and etheral motes of dust danced in the streams of light. What were those sounds? They seemed like the voices of people, but muffled" ... "Dalinar started toward the balcony, but storms, that light was so intense. It washed over him, making his eyes water, and he had to raise his hand to shield his eyes." OB Ch. 103 Hypocrite pgs 2522-2533 in iBooks This doesn't explain why he hears the voices of his victims before Gavilar's death and before his bond. This could be the work of the Unmade. We know the Death Rattles come from Moelach seeping into a dying person's soul at the point of death as it begins to break from the body. Other Unmade may use spirit web corpses to produce other results like the screams of people right before the point of deal. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/77448-madness-of-the-heralds/?do=findComment&comment=752399 Quote “Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! ” https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dai-gonarthis Dai-gonarthis is referred to as holding sorrow and consuming it in this death rattle. The victim is crying out for an end, like this Unmade is prolonging their agony, their screams through an unnatural means. Perhaps chomping on their spiritweb corpse.
RShara she/her Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Calderis said: I think the screams are just Spiritual remnants that Szeth and Dalinar are connecting to. No actual Cognitive aspect there. I think that "Evi's" forgiveness of Dalinar wasn't actually her. It was her Spiritual corpse interacting with him having finally reached a place that he could forgive himself. In addition, there's this WoB. Quote Blightsong Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears? Brandon Sanderson Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes. Blightsong So it has to do with the spiritual realm? Brandon Sanderson Yea, mhmm, yea. source
Ripheus23 Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 The screams are being caused by readers trying to figure out Vax and the black spheres. 3
+Spicker Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 I am not sure if this adds anything to the discussion or not, but this passage stuck out at me in my recent reread: "Phantoms appeared, created from Stormlight by the woman with the red hair. These were the shadows in the darkness, the ones he heard whispering of his murders. How she brought them to life, he did not know" -Oathbringer, Ch. 120. Are these whispering shadows related at all to the source of the screams? What does this passage say about Shallan's illusions?
Borio Singaldi he/him Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 Personally speaking, I think that's not an intentional connection, but more of a poetic, narrative one. Not any Realmatic Connection, but a way to represent Szeth's still-present insecurity and how deeply the screams and whispers plaguing him.
Calderis he/him Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 41 minutes ago, Firerust said: Personally speaking, I think that's not an intentional connection, but more of a poetic, narrative one. Not any Realmatic Connection, but a way to represent Szeth's still-present insecurity and how deeply the screams and whispers plaguing him. Agreed. Considering from Shallan's perspective, they are described as everyone she's ever drawn, I don't think it's connected to Szeth's screams. Szeth is still just kind of crazy. 2
+Child of Hodor Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 15 minutes ago, Calderis said: Agreed. Considering from Shallan's perspective, they are described as everyone she's ever drawn, I don't think it's connected to Szeth's screams. Szeth is still just kind of crazy. He thinks the voices are waiting for him in the red fog of the Thrill as well in the same chapter. He refuses to go in after Dalinar despite pledging to serve him and makes Lift go in by herself. He’s not a very reliable narrator.
+Child of Hodor Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 This new WoB may be relevant to this discussion. If the realms are closer then it's easier to be close enough to the spiritual realm to hear the voices. Very few people hear screaming victims, so there is more going on with Szeth and Dalinar. Quote #83 Steeldancer Would it be correct to say that the highstorms on Roshar have left the realms closer together than on other worlds? Brandon Sanderson You could say [that] is true. I'd be comfortable with that idea. Though there are worlds where this goes even further than on Roshar.
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