Why isn't Taravangian dead?

[lu-tze]

I've finished yet another re-listen of Oathbringer, and this time I find myself intensely confused why Taravangian is alive at the end. After telling Dalinar that it was him behind the Assassin in White (now Dalinar's bodyguard) – and therefore behind two attempts on Dalinar's life, and the death of several members of Bridge 4 – he just...walks away and is hanging out in Urithiru.

Why wasn't Taravangian's next appearance in a cell awaiting trial and execution?

In addition, Dalinar should immediately have asked Szeth what he knows about Taravangian that Taravangian decided not to reveal – and have learned about the death-rattle genocide chamber.

Amaram kills some soldiers and gets put on Dalinar's rust-list; Taravangian orders the assassination of dozens of world leaders, engendering civil wars; and he attempts to have Dalinar himself killed...yet is still welcome in Urithiru. Why? 

Edited September 30, 2018 by lu-tze

[Calderis he/him]

Because he's the king of Jah Keved, and it's Dalinar's word against his. 

With Alethkar broken, moving against Taravangian means war with the single strongest military power on Roshar. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Calderis

[lu-tze]

I don't really buy it. In the first place the succession is recent, and can be undone with the revelations that Taravangian was behind the assassinations and civil war in Jah Keved. In the second, Szeth himself can confirm who gave him his orders. In the third place, Dalinar seemed far less troubled by Taravangian's attempts to murder him than by Sadeas' attempt. Not to mention the threat his presence poses to the coalition: would Azir want to work with the man who had their previous prime assassinated? Not to mention the other regions who faced assassinations (to which we haven't had direct reference yet). Furthermore, all Dalinar mentions is

"Everything he’s done so far has been to secure a safe Roshar—if through brutal means. Still, I have to wonder. I can’t afford to be too trusting. Hopefully that’s one thing Sadeas cured in me."

Again, if Dalinar's opinion of Amaram crashed because of revelations that Amaram had killed a handful of his own troops (also to secure a safer Alethkar, and Roshar); then why can Taravangian get away with far worse? Where's the "we are forced to work together but I don't like it" speech (a la Sadeas)? It doesn't strike me as consistent. And if Jasnah found out? She was ready to kill Renarin, surely she'd see that Taravangian's pragmatic history makes him a severe threat. Did Dalinar just not mention this to anyone else? And decide he'd prefer not to hear Szeth's side of the history?

Edited September 30, 2018 by lu-tze

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I see a pretty good point in the OPs argument, but I think the reason for Dalinars mistake is character development. At the end of OB, Dalinar is a different, and a more forgiving and understanding man than he is at the end of WoR. He offers Amaram to switch back to Team Radiant during Thaylen Fields, but Amaram refuses. 

[Calderis he/him]

11 hours ago, lu-tze said:

In the first place the succession is recent, and can be undone with the revelations that Taravangian was behind the assassinations and civil war in Jah Keved.

And why would anyone believe the "revelations"?

11 hours ago, lu-tze said:

In the second, Szeth himself can confirm who gave him his orders.

Why would they believe the man who killed, over the one who brought his physicians and food? 

11 hours ago, lu-tze said:

In the third place, Dalinar seemed far less troubled by Taravangian's attempts to murder him than by Sadeas' attempt.

It's the difference between being screwed over by a business acquaintance, and someone you've known and trusted. Yes, Sadeas and him had been political enemies for years, but they were friends once, and Dalinar believed they were reaching that point again. 

The knife held by someone you know and (want to) trust is always more painful then the one held by a stranger. 

11 hours ago, lu-tze said:

Not to mention the threat his presence poses to the coalition: would Azir want to work with the man who had their previous prime assassinated? Not to mention the other regions who faced assassinations (to which we haven't had direct reference yet).

All of which are why Szeth's presence is a problem for Dalinar. Not Taravangian. 

The Assassin in White, the man who ravaged the world over, is now the sworn bodyguard of the only man to have "survived" one of his "attacks." It doesn't matter what Dalinar or Szeth say, to anyone not in Dalinar's inner circle, it's going to look like Szeth was always his tool. Pointing the finger at Taravangian for something he said to Dalinar in a private conversation is going to look made up.

All of the other leaders see Taravangian as a simpleton put in charge as a puppet. Moving against him would look like Dalinar is just the warlord that everyone thinks he is. 

[tmnsquirtle]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

All of which are why Szeth's presence is a problem for Dalinar. Not Taravangian. 

The Assassin in White, the man who ravaged the world over, is now the sworn bodyguard of the only man to have "survived" one of his "attacks." It doesn't matter what Dalinar or Szeth say, to anyone not in Dalinar's inner circle, it's going to look like Szeth was always his tool. Pointing the finger at Taravangian for something he said to Dalinar in a private conversation is going to look made up.

All of the other leaders see Taravangian as a simpleton put in charge as a puppet. Moving against him would look like Dalinar is just the warlord that everyone thinks he is. 

That's a good point. 

One of the strengths of Oathbringer was that it really made me realize that the conflict was real. There's a desolation going on, and Dalinar has to play the political game in order to succeed. Szeth is a good fighter, and potentially a valuable source of information on the radiant front, but.... it turns out he is also a huge monkey wrench politically.

[TrдVψLшR 0115 he/him]

It seemed like things were left open to be dealt with in the next book also. I don’t think Dalinar has just forgotten about it, but he wants to be 100% certain in his strategy.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

It reminds me a bit of when Stormfather tells Dalinar that Tezim is Ishar. Incredibly valuable info, which Dalinar doesn’t act upon. 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It reminds me a bit of when Stormfather tells Dalinar that Tezim is Ishar. Incredibly valuable info, which Dalinar doesn’t act upon. 

Kind of hard to act on the unsubstantiated info in a significant way, bearing aside the fact that most people probably believe that the Heralds are gone. Saying the Stormfather said he's Ishar probably wouldn't be acceptable to most people.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Kind of hard to act on the unsubstantiated info in a significant way, bearing aside the fact that most people probably believe that the Heralds are gone. Saying the Stormfather said he's Ishar probably wouldn't be acceptable to most people.

I think it would, especially after showing the visions to people. Everyone knows that Dalinar has gotten good intel before, and most people would accept Stormfather as an authority, especially after seeing him.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think it would, especially after showing the visions to people. Everyone knows that Dalinar has gotten good intel before, and most people would accept Stormfather as an authority, especially after seeing him.

From the visions, which as you point out are viewable and also a message from the Almighty, not the Stormfather. There's no proof that the Stormfather told him that though, or that it's true. And are you forgetting the whole marriage where the ardents still condemned him.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

From the visions, which as you point out are viewable and also a message from the Almighty, not the Stormfather. There's no proof that the Stormfather told him that though, or that it's true. And are you forgetting the whole marriage where the ardents still condemned him.

The ardents are one thing. People like Fen, Aladar, Jasnah, maybe Gawx, would defenitely believe him after all they have seen him do. The visions are from the Almighty yes, but the fact that he got them, imprisoned an Unmade, warned about Voidbringers, saved Thaylen City should indicate that he isn’t just making random stuff up about Tezim. 

[Quantus he/him]

On 9/30/2018 at 1:04 PM, Calderis said:

Moving against him would look like Dalinar is just the warlord that everyone thinks he is. 

And this is the real Crux of the matter, I think.  Dalinar cannot just go about Dispensing Justice as he sees fit, no matter how tactically sound it may seem his position of authority is not stable enough for that.  He'd have to think very carefully before he tried it within his own sphere of influence, let alone moving against another nation's leader.  Currently his greatest political rival is his own Blackthorn reputation, and that needs to be defeated before the rest of his coalition is going to follow his lead with anything less than extreme skepticism.

[+Child of Hodor]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And this is the real Crux of the matter, I think.  Dalinar cannot just go about Dispensing Justice as he sees fit, no matter how tactically sound it may seem his position of authority is not stable enough for that.  He'd have to think very carefully before he tried it within his own sphere of influence, let alone moving against another nation's leader.  Currently his greatest political rival is his own Blackthorn reputation, and that needs to be defeated before the rest of his coalition is going to follow his lead with anything less than extreme skepticism.

Killing kindly, feeble, simple-seeming old Taravangian wouldn't win Dalinar any allies.

Taravangian is the leader of perhaps the largest ground army the coalition has, especially now that the Alethi lost a bunch of Sadeas forces in the battle. They need him.  

Szeth could testify, but he's a mass murderer who talks to his creepy, kill-crazy sword and hears the voices of his victims in his head. He is a member of the Skybreakers and large portion of them just went over to the enemy. There is also the issue of him becoming a mass murderer because the Shin declared him "Truthless". He's not a credible witness. 

I was thinking a chunk of Oathbringer would be Law & Order: Urithiru. There was Sadeas' murder and Dalinar promised Kaladin that Amaram would be put on trial. We saw a fun investigation into other murders, but no trials. I don't think we'll see many court proceedings in these books aside from maybe Szeth being named Truthless in flashbacks. 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The ardents are one thing. People like Fen, Aladar, Jasnah, maybe Gawx, would defenitely believe him after all they have seen him do. The visions are from the Almighty yes, but the fact that he got them, imprisoned an Unmade, warned about Voidbringers, saved Thaylen City should indicate that he isn’t just making random stuff up about Tezim. 

You were asking why he didn't act on that info sooner, but half of the things which proved his credibility happened at the end of the OB, so he couldn't have acted before that. 

[Subvisual Haze]

It's not very rational, but it's perfectly fitting with Dalinar's character though.  Dalinar is the "man with a dark past seeking redemption" archetype.  See Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction, or Rurouni Kenshin for some good examples.   He has lived an incredibly violent past and now is trying his best to make a clean break from it.  As a result he over-corrects and offers everyone chances at redemption and is willing to forgive seemingly anyone, because to do otherwise would be hypocritical in light of the forgiveness he himself obtained.

We saw this in him mourning the loss of Sadeas even after the multiple betrayals, offering Amaram forgiveness at the Thaylen Battle, allowing Szeth to join their cause.  It's not so much that Dalinar is naive, just that offering second chances to everyone is the only way he can live with the sins he has committed.  Also it's important to remember that his demand for justice from Amaram occurred before his memories had been restored, demanding similar justice post memory restoration would be incredibly hypocritical in light of the mass-murder Dalinar committed (as Amaram correctly pointed out earlier in the book).

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You were asking why he didn't act on that info sooner, but half of the things which proved his credibility happened at the end of the OB, so he couldn't have acted before that. 

Good point. I guess he could have told the others and see how they reacted to the information, but yeah, I see why it would be problematic to act against Ishar. 

[Kaladin Zahel]

I think it's a lot simpler than all of these proposed theories. I think Mr. T is just too easy to underestimate/overlook. He's an old, simple man from the outside looking in. And even though Dalinar has glimpsed Mr. T's intelligence and ruthlessness, Dalinar is a social fool and is being blinded by his optomistic belief in others.