Do Dustbringers take themselves apart metaphorically?

[animalia]

I was thinking about the Dustbringers. How they like “taking things apart” How the traits of their herald are Brave and OBEDIENT. And I got to wondering. Maybe Dustbringers were people who had taken themselves apart metaphorically and didn’t like who/what they found. Maybe the reason they are so obedient is that they don’t trust their own judgment on things. Possibly they themselves have proven to have had bad judgment in the past?

 

I know it sounds crazy but I have a feeling about this.

[Ashertliden]

Based on the one dustbringer I know of, Malata, this seems unlikely. In my opinion at least she doesn’t seem to be extremely obedient to anyone or anything, even to the other members of the diagram. Furthermore she also seems extremely confident in herself. However, this is my only point of evidence, and given that her spren, Spark, wants to end humans, she may be an exception. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I feel like Malata is pretty obedient to one thing: her spren. It almost seems like she is doing Sparks bidding, not her own or even Taravangians. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

17 hours ago, Kal-Eldin said:

Based on the one dustbringer I know of, Malata, this seems unlikely. In my opinion at least she doesn’t seem to be extremely obedient to anyone or anything, even to the other members of the diagram. Furthermore she also seems extremely confident in herself. However, this is my only point of evidence, and given that her spren, Spark, wants to end humans, she may be an exception. 

Well she’s also a complete psychopath from the way she’s described, so I don’t really think we can consider her to be representative of her order as a whole, anymore than we can consider Nale to be representative of the Skybreakers as a whole. It wouldn’t really surprise me if her Spren was corrupted, either by Sja-Nat or her own dark personality, since it’s kind of implied that a Radiant’s Spren ‘inherits’ qualities from the one they bond.

[Angsos]

Yeah but Malata still has a living blade so she's obviously not completely off the reservation in that way

[Tglassy]

I wonder if Malata's spren is corrupted, in which case nothing can be confirmed at this point about the nature of her order. 

[goody153]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

I wonder if Malata's spren is corrupted, in which case nothing can be confirmed at this point about the nature of her order. 

We do know that Skybreakers sprens aren't likely corrupted so a Radiant doesn't necessarily have side team Honor aka Team Dalinar just because one is a Knight Raidant. That also means it doesn't necessarily mean Malata's spren is corrupted even if she basically opened the floodgates to Uritheru during the Siege of Thaylen. It might just mean that the spren order isn't against Malata's decision making to betray Dalinar.

Remember how backstabbing murder for the greater good is unacceptable with Windrunners but acceptable to Lightweavers/Elsecallers. Not every Radiant Order focuses on the same moral center

Edited September 24, 2018 by goody153

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I don’t think Spark is of Odium, or has been corrupted. I think Spark wants exactly what Malata says he wants: revenge. 

As for the OP, I think that the ”we don’t trust ourselves anymore” thing might apply to Malata. She joined the Diagram at first, and then seems to take orders from her spren. So yeah, she might think that she can’t make good decisions on her own for some reason. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I don’t think Spark is of Odium, or has been corrupted. I think Spark wants exactly what Malata says he wants: revenge.

Well if so then the new Dustbringers and their Spren are basically gonna be the Az Sweldn rak Anhûin of the Cosmere. I really hope not, since in my opinion that was one of the stupidest things in the Inheritance Cycle, and it would be no less ‘cartoon villain logic’ here either. I mean at least with the Skybreakers their betrayal does have a kind of twisted illogical type of logic to it. But helping Odium because you want revenge on the humans opposing Odium because Odium ultimately lead to their ancestors of nearly five millennia ago ‘killing’ a bunch of Spren? That truly is nuclear facepalm logic.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Nymeros]

I think all of the Radiants have to take themselves apart more and more in order to progress.

Malaya doesn't seem particularly obedient so I'm assuming her paths until now focused on bravery? I do think Dustbringers have to eventually temper their own recklessness by trusting and following the advice of others.

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Well if so then the new Dustbringers and their Spren are basically gonna be the Az Sweldn rak Anhûin of the Cosmere. I really hope not, since in my opinion that was one of the stupidest things in the Inheritance Cycle, and it would be no less ‘cartoon villain logic’ here either. I mean at least with the Skybreakers their betrayal does have a kind of twisted illogical type of logic to it. But helping Odium because you want revenge on the humans opposing Odium because Odium ultimately lead to their ancestors of nearly five millennia ago ‘killing’ a bunch of Spren? That truly is nuclear facepalm logic.

Odium didn't lead the Radiants to anything, it didn't happen 5000 years ago or close to it, and we are talking about thousands of spren being killed. Those spren were likely Spark's own friends and family. Not sure how it is illogical for him to want revenge.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

16 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

I think all of the Radiants have to take themselves apart more and more in order to progress.

Malaya doesn't seem particularly obedient so I'm assuming her paths until now focused on bravery? I do think Dustbringers have to eventually temper their own recklessness by trusting and following the advice of others.

Odium didn't lead the Radiants to anything, it didn't happen 5000 years ago or close to it, and we are talking about thousands of spren being killed. Those spren were likely Spark's own friends and family. Not sure how it is illogical for him to want revenge.

None of it would have happened if Odium hadn’t willfully caused the Desolations. And yeah, according to Ash, the last Desolation was nearly five thousand years ago (4500 years give or take). Regardless, the modern Radiants had absolutely nothing to do with the recreance, so wanting revenge on them is just stupid. Like I said, the one they should want revenge on is Odium.

[Nymeros]

12 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

None of it would have happened if Odium hadn’t willfully caused the Desolations. And yeah, according to Ash, the last Desolation was nearly five thousand years ago (4500 years give or take). Regardless, the modern Radiants had absolutely nothing to do with the recreance, so wanting revenge on them is just stupid. Like I said, the one they should want revenge on is Odium.

People have to carry the burden of the sins of their parents all the time and Spren live for millenium. You feel like the Spren shouldve just waited a few days for the Radiant to die and then be back to besties with humanity?

The Recreance happened well after the Desolations ended (like thousands of years after) and Odium didnt lead humanity to it.

It had a massive impact on the spren leaving young spren with no guidance, societal structure or culture....not sure why you see it as something to shrug off. Even then, we have Spren who do want to still join humanity and oppose Odium, others who do not want to interfere, and another who has bonded a Singer instead. Different types of individuals react differently to situations.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Nymeros

[Calderis he/him]

Malata gives Spark's reasoning quite clearly, and it has nothing to do with Odium.

Quote

“Spark is fine with what we’re doing,” Malata said, pressing her finger down and adding another swirl to the table. “I told you, the rest of them are idiots. They assume all the spren are going to be on their side. Never mind what the Radiants did to Spark's friends, never mind that organized devotion to Honor is what killed hundreds of ashspren in the first place.”

“And Odium?” Taravangian asked, curious. The Diagram warned that the personalities of the Radiants would introduce great uncertainty to their plans.

“Spark is game for whatever it takes to get vengeance. And what lets her break stuff.” Malata grinned. “Someone should have warned me how fun this would be. I’d have tried way harder to land the job.”

I don't know what is up with Malata, but I'm curious. Whatever it is though, this is on Spark, not her. Spark chose her. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

People have to carry the burden of the sins of their parents all the time

Not in a civilized, reason-based society they don’t. Admittedly, Roshar is far from universally that, but still. There is no universe in which a child should be punished for something they had absolutely no part in.

And didn’t the Recreance happen relatively shortly after the last Desolation? 

[Yata he/him]

25 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

And didn’t the Recreance happen relatively shortly after the last Desolation? 

Depends by your definition of "relatively shortly". There were 2000 years between the two

[Tglassy]

43 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Not in a civilized, reason-based society they don’t. Admittedly, Roshar is far from universally that, but still. There is no universe in which a child should be punished for something they had absolutely no part in.

And didn’t the Recreance happen relatively shortly after the last Desolation? 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6198111/Scotlands-black-professor-calls-amends-report-University-benefited-slavery.html

What I get from this article is that because the school made money from the Tobacco industry 2 to 3 centuries ago, and because the tobacco industry at that time used slaves, the current officials, who had nothing to do with that and honestly hadn't even put the two together (tobacco and slaves), they should make reparations and pay back the back community for their ancestor's work, even though the university itself was on the forefront of the abolitionist movement and had a big roll in ending slavery.  

And they say that current Scottish wealthy individuals should look back through their family accounts from the 18th and 19th centuries, find out of their ancestors made any money on industries that even in part had anything remotely to do with slavery, and do the same thing.  I'd say that's an example of civilized, reason-based societies forcing individuals to pay for the sins of their ancestors centuries back.  

Of course, I see nothing about modern companies using the equivalent of Chinese slaves to work their factories.  I guess it doesn't count if it's Asians.

 

Note: I'm not saying this is right or wrong, and don't put this here as an attempt to start a discussion about it.  I'm simply using it as an example of a civilized, reason-based society demanding that the children pay for the sins of their parents.  It happens all the time.  

Edited September 24, 2018 by Tglassy

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

4 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Well if so then the new Dustbringers and their Spren are basically gonna be the Az Sweldn rak Anhûin of the Cosmere. I really hope not, since in my opinion that was one of the stupidest things in the Inheritance Cycle, and it would be no less ‘cartoon villain logic’ here either. I mean at least with the Skybreakers their betrayal does have a kind of twisted illogical type of logic to it. But helping Odium because you want revenge on the humans opposing Odium because Odium ultimately lead to their ancestors of nearly five millennia ago ‘killing’ a bunch of Spren? That truly is nuclear facepalm logic.

I don’t think the new Dustbringers will join Odium for revenge. I doubt all of them are like Spark and Malata. And honestly, the logic makes sense from Sparks POV. The humans killed and betrayed his kind. Why not kill them back?

And yeah the evil dwarves in Inheritance was not that great, but they also had pretty poor development. I hope Spark will be developed better. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

35 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

 The humans killed and betrayed his kind. Why not kill them back?

Because they’re already long dead and buried. That logic is basically equivalent to wanting to kill every dog of every breed on the planet because a rabid pit bull killed your child. It’s extremem difficult to write that kind of character well, because like I said, there is nothing at all rational about it given even a modicum of thought. Unless Ashspren just aren’t as intelligent as other sapient Spren are. 

And I’m confused. Didn’t Ba-Ado-Mishram cause the false Desolation just after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact? Am I completely misremembering what was said about it?

Edited September 24, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

6 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Because they’re already long dead and buried. That logic is basically equivalent to wanting to kill every dog of every breed on the planet because a rabid pit bull killed your child. It’s extremem difficult to write that kind of character well, because like I said, there is nothing at all rational about it given even a modicum of thought. Unless Ashspren just aren’t as intelligent as other sapient Spren are. 

Its a pretty classic logic though, and one that works kind of well in people who grieve if done right (Jaina Proudmoore from Warcraft is a great example of this done well). The point with Spark is that Spark has lived for a long time, and knew the spren who died. As such, he, like many other spren (Stormfather for instance) harbor a distrust for humans. I think this puts it in another perspective than the Inheritance dwarves for instance. For Spark, things are different, and he hasn’t forgiven, because his connection to tye dead are direct and personal. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

I guess. The parallel is definitely there though; none of it would have happened if Odium hadn’t come to Roshar and effectively declared war on it. If nothing else, it should be an ‘enemy of my enemy’ situation. If not for him, there wouldn’t have needed to be Radiants in the first place.

[Calderis he/him]

When is revenge ever logic driven? 

Emotional motivations are rarely ever compatible with logic. Thinking through the implications of what drives an intense emotional response either triggers an emotional flood that kills the thought process, or diffuses the emotions. You can't do both. 

[Yata he/him]

37 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

And I’m confused. Didn’t Ba-Ado-Mishram cause the false Desolation just after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact? Am I completely misremembering what was said about it?

No she didn't. The False Desolation happened quite close to the Recreance and indeed probably the capture of BAM (and the conseguent Spiritual genocide of the Singer race) was the last drop to push the Radiant to broke their Oaths

[Calderis he/him]

The best time lines we've been able to work out place the Recreance and the false desolation roughly halfway between Aharietiem and the current time in SA. There are a couple thousand years with Radiants after the last Desolation. 

[Nymeros]

10 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Not in a civilized, reason-based society they don’t. Admittedly, Roshar is far from universally that, but still. There is no universe in which a child should be punished for something they had absolutely no part in.

And didn’t the Recreance happen relatively shortly after the last Desolation? 

I'm saying that on an individual level, it's perfectly normal to direct your anger towards a situation or person onto those that far are associated but not directly responsible.

For a minor example, I'm very unlikely to be pleased with or pleasant towards the friends and family of someone who is my enemy.

As far as I'm aware, the Recreance happened thousands of years after the Heralds betrayed humanity.

9 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Because they’re already long dead and buried. That logic is basically equivalent to wanting to kill every dog of every breed on the planet because a rabid pit bull killed your child. It’s extremem difficult to write that kind of character well, because like I said, there is nothing at all rational about it given even a modicum of thought. Unless Ashspren just aren’t as intelligent as other sapient Spren are. 

Not really? The Recreance was a conscious intentioned betrayal by a sapient race that killed thousands and brought cultures and civilisations to ruin. Wars had been waged over lesser crimes. I dont think its comparable to "a wild dog attacked and killed my son."

I also don't think that showing hatred towards a group for wrongs committed against you by members of the group is unnatural or a sign of unintelligence.

8 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I guess. The parallel is definitely there though; none of it would have happened if Odium hadn’t come to Roshar and effectively declared war on it. If nothing else, it should be an ‘enemy of my enemy’ situation. If not for him, there wouldn’t have needed to be Radiants in the first place.

Eh, there wouldn't have been a Desolation or Oathpact if Honor hadn't sided with the humans in there war with the Singers. Im sure that the Radiants were responsible for their own governance and actions at the time of the Recreance.

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

When is revenge ever logic driven? 

Emotional motivations are rarely ever compatible with logic. Thinking through the implications of what drives an intense emotional response either triggers an emotional flood that kills the thought process, or diffuses the emotions. You can't do both. 

Very well articulated. Take my upvote

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Look, all I’m saying is that given that if Odium wins he will in all probability exterminate ALL Spren that are of Honor and Cultivation (he pretty much says as much to Dalinar), the fact that Spark thinks it’s a good idea to side with Odium is just stupid, especially considering that as I’ve said a few times now Odium is arguably at least indirectly responsible for the ‘deaths’ of Spark’s friends while the Radiants were just trying to do the right thing for all of Roshar, the Spren included. 

I just really hope there’s more to the Ashspren’s betrayal than a misguided desire for revenge against people who didn’t even do anything to wrong them. If those Radiants were somehow still alive, then alright, I could maybe see how their actions might be considered if not reasonable than at least understandable, but they aren’t, they’ve been dead for 2500 years.