Forging Shardplate

[Argent]

Nightblood is one of a kind only because Vasher is keeping the secret of its creation, well, secret. Considering how readily available Breath is on Nalthis, and how easy it is to acquire 1,000 if you are rich, Vasher could quickly and easily create a bunch of Awakened weapons, if he wished. So Nightblood's uniqueness is only by choice. Actually, now that I think about it, since Stormlight and Breath are similar enough to allow Returned to feed off them interchangeably, I find it possible that Shardplate is almost like the Rosharan equivalent of an Awakened object. It's not sentient by any measure, nor is it infused with a Command, but it is pretty heavily Invested, and it has a pretty strong presence in all three Realms (Physical is obvious, with Cognitive and Spiritual being responsible for the self-restoration and size/shape adjustment). 

 

Regardless, I am not going to explore that now.

 

I still don't see why you believe that the Nahel spren are 100% responsible for the creation of each suit of Shardplate, as opposed to, say, 50% - providing its obviously magical properties, as well as fortifying it even more maybe.

[Darkness]

Vaspin makes some excellent points in pointing out the flaws in the "Shardplate is Spren" theory. I was originally planning to prove y'all wrong about the Shardplate is Spren theory, but after diving into the WoBs from theoryland that talks about the nature of Shardplate, I am no longer that sure. Permit me to just cite them all while I ponder on this for a while longer:

Those quotes made me think that maybe Shardplate is actually from another world. Perhaps the one the heralds came from. Heralds, having selected/permitted certain Rosharans to become Radiants, helping to protect the world and prepare for desolations, returned to their world intermittently to procure shard plate for the Knights Radiant.

 

Spoiler for space saving:

b4dave ()

My question is, why are they called Shardblades/Shardplate? Is it because they are a splinter of the the Shard Honor, or is there something more to them than that?

Brandon Sanderson

You are on the right track.

They are a splinter of a Shard (that is what invested means), just not of Honor. Could be Cultivation (that's why they regrow), or some other Shard entirely. I'm thinking off-Roshar. From wherever the heralds come from is my first guess, although they would have had access to many worlds theoretically.

 

PricklyBear

Is there a functional/structural difference between modern-day Shardplate and the stuff the Radiants wore? Did the Radiants have to use infused gems to keep their suits going or could they just 'breathe in' Stormlight and feed the suit off of their 'inhaled' reserves?

Brandon Sanderson

Something is different. You will find out what.

The difference in the plate is likely correlated to a difference in the wearers. There is no specified difference in the plate's composition, but it could be that too (E.g. the Radiants might not have had infused gemstones in their suits).

The differences in Radiants then and Shardbearers now are: No oaths, no Nahel bond, no surge binding.

The differences in what the plate could do are: Retractable helmet (summoning/bonding?), glowing, don't block the wearer from using Stormlight.

The differences may just be due to the perception of the wearer and access to investiture of some sort (i.e. the Nahel bond/surgebinding) to fuel the plate (that's a common theme across worlds).

 

RIT

Alright, glowing Shardplate and retractable helmets. Is that a similar origin of the Shardblades—

Brandon Sanderson

There's a similarity, but they are also very different.

Similar in that they are both invested objects. Different in that they are from a different Shard.

RIT

Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and how they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.

Brandon Sanderson

No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly.

It is somewhat similar to a Shardblade, but also different.

Shardblades with Radiants: Bond to the Radiants, are instantly summonable. Can cut through anything (except another blade(spren=shardic investiture), a plate can take a few hits(invested?), and possibly aluminum(?)). Can change shape instantly to suit the needs of the Radiant. Allow surge binding.

Shardplates with Radiants: Can be summoned similarly to blades (?), like the helmet. Can temporarily withstand Shardblades. Can adapt shape to the Radiant (within reason?).

 

Important note: Modern Shardblades can change shape only very slowly, Shardplate tightens itself around the wearer much faster. Another difference.

 

This is comparable to how Nightblood is similar to Shardblades while on Roshar, but is still different (and is also different from Nightblood on Nalthis). Shardplate is similar to Shardblades (both being things of/with investiture), but because it is from a different Shard and world, it behaves somewhat differently. Shardplate on Roshar would also probably be somewhat different from Shardplate from whatever world it came from.

 

Question

Is there a difference between the Shardplate of the Radiants and the current Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Current: Cannot be summoned (non-retractable helmets), do not allow surgebinding as easily (based on Szeth), don't glow.

[Shaggai]

Plate is inherently Invested because other forms of Investiture have no/limited effect on them. You can't voidbind/surgebind the Plate and in every other instance besides Plate, Shardblades effortlessly cut through everything. This relates to Mr. Sanderson Investiture vs. Investiture situations

 

 

You see this also in Words of Radiance when Adolin realizes he can't be affected by the Listeners stormform voidbinded lightning. Since there's proof of Plate being an Invested object its not far-fetched to claim Radiants acquired it from being bonded to spren, because it's where they get the ability to surgebind and a Shardblade.

 

I'm also not quite clear on your point about the Ryshadium. For one, we have no evidence to say they were used by the Radiants. And also, I'm not saying they wouldn't use fabrials, however, Shardplate seems to be of an entirely different caliber, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunate as it was Sureblood fell to the Voidbinding and the half-shards were pitifully against the honorblade Szeth wielded.

 

@Shaggai: You seemed to be in the camp of an additional spren being involved in the creation of new Plate. If it's more nuanced than that I apologize, but both arguments seem far-fetched considering what we know of Plate and Investiture on Roshar is handled

I'm basically saying the same thing as Argent, although maybe slightly different - I think it's a non-Nahel spren bonded to a suit of armor. The spren does the magic. Like a fabrial, but the spren has more discretion. Your points that are specifically about spren don't apply, for the most part. However, I don't quite understand your points about fabrials. Fabrials contain and use Investiture in the form of Stormlight. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that fabrials don't work because the Plate has Investiture in it and fabrials don't. So, therefore, I'm pretty sure that I'm misunderstanding you. Could you explain again?

[Vaspin]

I think it's 100% because nothing else makes sense. Fabrials seem too limited in what they are able to accomplish. If it turned out to be another spren it would just seem weird considering how I think the Nahel bond works. There's just too many similarities between Shardblades, surgebinders, and Shardplate to say there's another outside factor involved, considering how the information has been presented to us. It seems unnecessary. 

 

I guess I'm leaving out part of why I hold to this. It has to do with my theory of what happens when a person, possessing the Nahel bond, speaks more Ideals and how Investiture seems to occur on Roshar. In short a Radiant. would perhaps becomes a pseudo-being of Investiture as they speak more oaths. So in my head it makes sense for them to create their own plate

Edited April 22, 2014 by Vaspin

[Shaggai]

I think it's 100% because nothing else makes sense. Fabrials seem too limited in what they are able to accomplish. If it turned out to be another spren it would just seem weird considering how I think the Nahel bond works. There's just too many similarities between Shardblades, surgebinders, and Shardplate to say there's another outside factor involved, considering how the information has been presented to us. It seems unnecessary. 

 

I guess I'm leaving out part of why I hold to this. It has to do with my theory of what happens when a person, possessing the Nahel bond, speaks more Ideals and how Investiture seems to occur on Roshar. In short a Radiant. would perhaps becomes a pseudo-being of Investiture as they speak more oaths. So in my head it makes sense for them to create their own plate

Fabrials are too limited. Nahel spren don't work. Sure. But a spren bound to a suit of armor wouldn't be as limited, and we know that Surgebinders can semibond lesser spren. Renarin, for example, bonds a Shardblade. Bonding Plate probably works the same way.

[Moogle]

I think it's 100% because nothing else makes sense. Fabrials seem too limited in what they are able to accomplish.

 

Out of curiosity, what makes you say fabrials are 'limited'? If I were on Roshar, I'd be drooling at the possibilities for fabrials. Hovercraft to start with (via a gemheart blowing strong winds), instant internet via spanreed networks (it would just take some physical muxing of conjoined rubies), decanters of endless water, bulletproof vests made of superlight foam, elevators with conjoined fabrials and some sort of motion-producing fabrial... and it's all powered by 'clean' energy.

 

I feel pretty confident that something similar to Shardplate could be created via modern fabrial science. The problem is that it'd be rather bulky (though this could be fixed with time), maybe not as snazzy with the glowing runes, and you'd have to wait for a highstorm to recharge it.

[Shaggai]

Out of curiosity, what makes you say fabrials are 'limited'? If I were on Roshar, I'd be drooling at the possibilities for fabrials. Hovercraft to start with (via a gemheart blowing strong winds), instant internet via spanreed networks (it would just take some physical muxing of conjoined rubies), decanters of endless water, bulletproof vests made of superlight foam, elevators with conjoined fabrials and some sort of motion-producing fabrial... and it's all powered by 'clean' energy.

 

I feel pretty confident that something similar to Shardplate could be created via modern fabrial science. The problem is that it'd be rather bulky (though this could be fixed with time), maybe not as snazzy with the glowing runes, and you'd have to wait for a highstorm to recharge it.

You have to use the specific patterns of Stormlight and so on. I doubt it would be anywhere near as good as Shardplate, as well. It would have to enhance the speed and strength of the wearer, be composed entirely of diamond shapes (for the half-shards), and fit itself to a person. It would be absurdly difficult.

[Argent]

Huh, looks like both of you thought I was talking about a non-Nahel spren. Which is not the case. I believe it's the Radiant's spren that is responsible for powering up / upgrading / whatevering their own Shardplate. But I also believe there has to be something before the spren can kick in, a normal or a not-quite-as-powerful suit of armor, let's say.

[Shaggai]

Huh, looks like both of you thought I was talking about a non-Nahel spren. Which is not the case. I believe it's the Radiant's spren that is responsible for powering up / upgrading / whatevering their own Shardplate. But I also believe there has to be something before the spren can kick in, a normal or a not-quite-as-powerful suit of armor, let's say.

Ah, I see. I just find it unlikely that each Radiant would have their own individual suit, when the suit changes itself to fit whoever wears it.

[Argent]

Two arguments against yours:

1. Shardblade also changes shape and size over time.
2. People can change shape over time - you might gain weight, lose weight, or even hit some weird growth spur. It makes sense for the Plate to adjust, even if it's just for your own body.

[Moogle]

You have to use the specific patterns of Stormlight and so on. I doubt it would be anywhere near as good as Shardplate, as well. It would have to enhance the speed and strength of the wearer, be composed entirely of diamond shapes (for the half-shards), and fit itself to a person. It would be absurdly difficult.

 

I agree that it would be absurdly difficult (at the present time), but I have huge hopes for a sci-fi Roshar. Imagine spaceships powered by an assortment of different colored gems, with light-producing fabrials acting as lasers and oh my it'd be great. (Don't ask why they don't just use Transportation to teleport to other planets.)

 

I imagine they could make a better sort of Shardplate in the future, but perhaps I'm a little bit too optimistic in regards to SCIENCE!

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Vaspin]

Ah, okay I think I can agree more with you theory based on that Argent.

 

@Shaggai

Fabrials are a tool to which a person can use stormlight in its...base form I guess. Like how a squire may have access to stormlight but not the surges. Fabrials only use stormlight as a power source. But it has a lot more potential to it. In the case of surgebinders they have access to the fundamental forces and Shardblades have the ability to affect the cognitive realm. What I was trying to say is that fabrials are nothing like that. None of the one's we've actually seen so far have shown to have any relationship with the natural world, unlike surgebinders, Blades, and Plate. 

 

Investiture to me is more than just being able to harness the force(i.e. Stormlight) as just power. If someone/thing is Invested it should have the capability to affect one or all three realms(Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual)

[Rekkoning]

Man I am late to this discussion. On the drive home to work today I was thinking about Shardplate and it's functionality and it's creation. I came up with a list of things we know currently about Shardplate and what it could possibly mean.

1. Shardplate was not used by the Heralds that we know of. When Taln does his babbling, he says that the Heralds will help them make bronze armor and weapons, meaning that they possibly didn't create/know how to make Shardplate. If Heralds never used plate, then I believe it is something created by the KR for the KR, by multiple Orders probably, which would mean it is probably aided by spren as the Heralds didn't have/use spren. As we also know, they are currently close to making Shardplate in Jah Keved with the half-shard shields, but are missing something important, so I am going to hypothesize that there is a KR (Possibly a Stoneward) hiding somewhere in Jah Keved that aided in the making of the half-shards but are lacking another order to negotiate with the spren. Remote possibility though.
2. WoB stated that Shardplate is not made of crem, but it was a good idea/direction. I believe that the armor is Soulcast metal such as aluminum and enhanced through the use of Tension/Cohesion to strengthen the plate in the physical realm and somehow lesser spren are manipulated/bonded/drawn into the armor giving it a greater presence in the Cognitive/Spiritual Realm, allowing it to be regrown as spren can be "broken but never destroyed." So maybe feeding spren Stormlight helps heal since spren tend to act funny in a highstorm where there is an excess amount of Stormlight, ex Syl. Or another theory, is that the Shardplate is made up of lesser spren coming together. We have seen evidence in the books that people believe it plausible that spren have protected people from falls/injuries, but that could help lend evidence to either of these methods. 
3. When Kaladin wore the Shardhelm on his hand, it lasted longer and seemed to suck Stormlight out of him. It probably lasted longer due to the fact that it had a greater pool of Stormlight to pull/heal from. I believe a full Shardplate allowed for more efficient use of Stormlight by the KR. We have read how that unless a Surgebinder holds his breath, a greater amount of Stormlight tends to leak out and be wasted. We also see that even if they hold their breath, it leaks off their skin and when Kaladin lands from "falling", there tends to be a puff of Stormlight when he lands. If that is the case, a full set of Shardplate could act as a system to contain excess Stormlight and use it to power itself. Another argument could be made that a KR could Invest the armor with a ridiculous amount of Stormlight  before using it (I believe this is possible because Kaladin can will Stormlight into rocks and people to stick them to walls.)
4. When used with the original KR, Shardplate could be summoned/dismissed at will (it seems). It could also be taken off without outside help as shown during the Recreance. This seems to support the idea that Shardplate is spren related as a Shardblade can be summoned/dismissed and is a spren. 
5. Shardplate can be regrown over time by feeding it Stormlight. We know Shardplate when broken needs to be fed Stormlight to regrow and it can take a couple weeks and massive amounts of Stormlight depending on how many pieces are broken. We've seen that there is a relationship between Stormlight and spren, as noted that there are gravityspren on the rocks that Kaladin infuses with Stormlight to help hold it in place, the changes in how Syl acts during a highstorm, and, with a tenuous stretch at best, how Soulcasters give stormlight to transform an object and we know all objects have spren or a spirit, I forget which, maybe both?
6. Shardplate when not painted is slate grey. Everyone notes how Dalinar does not adorn his Plate with anything and that it is the base color of slate grey. Assuming that his plate was never painted, this could mean that if there is no spren bonded to the armor, that this is it's natural state and why it doesn't have the glyphs on it.

So with those points out of the way, my conclusions are 

• Some Order of the KR (probably Elsecallers) make/manipulate a metal/spren possibly for Shardplate. I believe this has to something to do with how a spren acts on expectations/how it is viewed by others (ex: the spren Axies sees that comes out of the water with the faces, and how flamespren act after being measured.) 
• It is enhanced/strengthened by another Order with the use of Cohension or Tension, I am going to guess Stonewards. (It could be possible that if it doesn't involve Soulcasting a metal, maybe the Willshapers were the ones who made it completely by themselves as they could access Shadesmar but there is virtually no information about them or how cohesion/tension work.)
• Shardplate spren are powered by the excess Stormlight that comes out of the KR or are infused with Stormlight by a KR. It also uses extra Stormlight to heal itself, just like Kaladin had to focus and invest more Stormlight to heal his Shardblade wounds.
• The fundamental difference between the Shardplate the old KR used and the ones currently being used by the Alethi is that there are not any lesser spren bonded to the armor.
• I believe the color of the Shardplate when used by the original KR has something to do with which spren is bonded into it depending on which Order. This is pure conjecture though

 

Also another theory is that I believe Shardplate could be powered if it was put out during a highstorm.

 

added spoilers due to how long that was. 

Edited May 6, 2014 by Rekkoning

[Unite Them]

During one of dalinar's visions he keeps remarking on how the radiants helmets keep appearing and disappearing. This indicates to me that just as a nahel bonded shardblade can appear and disappear or be formed in different ways the shardplate is also just a manifestation of spren.

[BrightVoid]

I am leaning more on the side of Shardblades coming from Honor and Shardplate coming from Cultivation.

[C. James-Mayer]

Doesn't it strike you strange that it the term used is grow. To grow the Shardplate by fusing it with Stormlight. To regrow a damaged Shardplate.

 

Who else grows plate on them? Listeners.

Where do Listeners grow their armor? In the highstorm.

 

My theory for some time is that the Shardplate should be growed when a Radiant enter a Highstorm and probably use the crem from the rainwater and the Stormlight to grow the armor on him. It is probably not that easy, but I believe this is the general way of things. Crem is referenced consistently during the books as something that sticks everywhere you don't want it, also has a lot of minerals and stuff (Shallan reference) and is kind of hard in a way.

 

The reason Kaladin/Shallan still don't have a plate could be that they are quite new to this and don't know the extent of Stormlight.

[galendo]

I am leaning more on the side of Shardblades coming from Honor and Shardplate coming from Cultivation.

But the spren themselves are partly of Honor and partly of Cultivation.  Shallan's spren is much more of Cultivation than of Honor.  Pattern doesn't even care if Shallan says any oaths beyond the first.

I'm pretty certain we'll see Shardplate being formed from a grouping of lesser spren (windspren to Syl's honorspren, for example).  It's the only thing that makes any sense to me.  We've already seen that lesser spren, at least, can be bound into shape simply by measuring them.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if this was precedent for a sapient spren binding the others into Shardplate.  A lot of things make sense with this theory that just don't otherwise.  I can elaborate if you wish.

 

Doesn't it strike you strange that it the term used is grow. To grow the Shardplate by fusing it with Stormlight. To regrow a damaged Shardplate.

 

Who else grows plate on them? Listeners.

Where do Listeners grow their armor? In the highstorm.

 

My theory for some time is that the Shardplate should be growed when a Radiant enter a Highstorm and probably use the crem from the rainwater and the Stormlight to grow the armor on him. It is probably not that easy, but I believe this is the general way of things. Crem is referenced consistently during the books as something that sticks everywhere you don't want it, also has a lot of minerals and stuff (Shallan reference) and is kind of hard in a way.

 

The reason Kaladin/Shallan still don't have a plate could be that they are quite new to this and don't know the extent of Stormlight.

I'm pretty certain they use the term grow because, when a piece of Plate is damaged, it's literally regrown by infusing it with Stormlight.  Like, you go from having half of a breastplate to having three-quarters of one to having the full piece.  And that if you lose a piece of Plate, the missing part literally regrows similarly.  To tie this into the point above, this regrowing makes a lot of sense if you think of the Plate being made from lots of little spren.  They rejoin the Plate one by one in the presence of Stormlight, so the Plate grows little by little.  Hence the use of the word grow.

[C. James-Mayer]

But the spren themselves are partly of Honor and partly of Cultivation.  Shallan's spren is much more of Cultivation than of Honor.  Pattern doesn't even care if Shallan says any oaths beyond the first.

I'm pretty certain we'll see Shardplate being formed from a grouping of lesser spren (windspren to Syl's honorspren, for example).  It's the only thing that makes any sense to me.  We've already seen that lesser spren, at least, can be bound into shape simply by measuring them.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if this was precedent for a sapient spren binding the others into Shardplate.  A lot of things make sense with this theory that just don't otherwise.  I can elaborate if you wish.

 

I'm pretty certain they use the term grow because, when a piece of Plate is damaged, it's literally regrown by infusing it with Stormlight.  Like, you go from having half of a breastplate to having three-quarters of one to having the full piece.  And that if you lose a piece of Plate, the missing part literally regrows similarly.  To tie this into the point above, this regrowing makes a lot of sense if you think of the Plate being made from lots of little spren.  They rejoin the Plate one by one in the presence of Stormlight, so the Plate grows little by little.  Hence the use of the word grow.

 

I still prefer crem and Stormlight instead of spren and Stormlight. It's far more plausible, but both are possible of course.

 

Also, Shardplate acts like living thing, twisting and setting around your physical build like plant. And all the flora in Roshar lives by using the minerals from crem (another Shallan reference). So, yeah... I'd rather go with crem until we find out.

[Reborn radiant]

I always thought that the radiant who spoke the last ordeal gets his own shard plate from the spren itself. 

[galendo]

I still prefer crem and Stormlight instead of spren and Stormlight. It's far more plausible, but both are possible of course.

 

Also, Shardplate acts like living thing, twisting and setting around your physical build like plant. And all the flora in Roshar lives by using the minerals from crem (another Shallan reference). So, yeah... I'd rather go with crem until we find out.

Well, I won't tell you what to believe, but personally I find spren to be far more plausible than crem.  If your argument is that Shardplate is adaptable, that's true, but spren are much more adaptable than any Rosharan plant.  Syl can be sword, shield, spear...basically whatever she pleases in a mere instant.  We've also seen live Plate disappear (in Dalinar's vision), much as we know spren can do, which neither crem nor plants can do.

[C. James-Mayer]

Well, I won't tell you what to believe, but personally I find spren to be far more plausible than crem.  If your argument is that Shardplate is adaptable, that's true, but spren are much more adaptable than any Rosharan plant.  Syl can be sword, shield, spear...basically whatever she pleases in a mere instant.  We've also seen live Plate disappear (in Dalinar's vision), much as we know spren can do, which neither crem nor plants can do.

 

Well, it could be basically anything at the moment, since we don't know that much about Shardplates. You present a valid point that made me think, I forgot about the helm that disappeared on demand.

 

We're missing some little trick, hopefully we will find out in Oathbringer...

[BrightVoid]

Just found this.

 

OUTIS

Is Shardplate crem?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No it is not, good question.

[Jondesu]

I'm going to continue to hold to belief for now that it's basically solidified Stormlight, formed by the Knight's Cognitive self.

jW