Forging Shardplate

[Darkness he/him]

Here's my question. If Shardplate were just a spren of 'lesser' consciousness, then why would it need gemstones to fuel it? I guess it could have been jimmied up by humans after the Recreance, but what need would the original plate have of gemstones if it were actually a living spren? And then of course, why wouldn't plate scream? If plates and blades are both dead spren, then the only meaningful difference I see is that the plate has gemstones, and the plate can still regenerate and change form to suit (no pun intended) the wearer. OH, and plate doesn't disappear when dropped, or seem to require bonding time.

Then again, perhaps plate is a lesser spren, and the bond just wasn't broken like it was with the blades… the Radiants didn't drop their plate! And maybe the previous 'glowiness' of plate came from the Nahel bond? I don't know. Too many variables and guesses.

[Shaggai]

Here's my question. If Shardplate were just a spren of 'lesser' consciousness, then why would it need gemstones to fuel it? I guess it could have been jimmied up by humans after the Recreance, but what need would the original plate have of gemstones if it were actually a living spren? And then of course, why wouldn't plate scream? If plates and blades are both dead spren, then the only meaningful difference I see is that the plate has gemstones, and the plate can still regenerate and change form to suit (no pun intended) the wearer. OH, and plate doesn't disappear when dropped, or seem to require bonding time.

Then again, perhaps plate is a lesser spren, and the bond just wasn't broken like it was with the blades… the Radiants didn't drop their plate! And maybe the previous 'glowiness' of plate came from the Nahel bond? I don't know. Too many variables and guesses.

The Stormlight... well, I can't think of a good explanation right now, but it seems explainable. Maybe the Stormlight keeps the Plate's spren "awake" to use the power. The spren aren't dead because they were never fully alive, and the glow had to do with the partial bond between the wearer/the wearer's spren and the spren of the Plate.

[shadewolf]

Here's my question. If Shardplate were just a spren of 'lesser' consciousness, then why would it need gemstones to fuel it? I guess it could have been jimmied up by humans after the Recreance, but what need would the original plate have of gemstones if it were actually a living spren? And then of course, why wouldn't plate scream? If plates and blades are both dead spren, then the only meaningful difference I see is that the plate has gemstones, and the plate can still regenerate and change form to suit (no pun intended) the wearer. OH, and plate doesn't disappear when dropped, or seem to require bonding time.

Then again, perhaps plate is a lesser spren, and the bond just wasn't broken like it was with the blades… the Radiants didn't drop their plate! And maybe the previous 'glowiness' of plate came from the Nahel bond? I don't know. Too many variables and guesses.

 

To be fair, we don't know why surge binding needs stormlight, but using a shardblade doesn't; it doesn't make sense considering that we've seen the spren regularly have trouble affecting the world directly.

[kaellok he/him]

Accidentally found this tidbit while searching for something unrelated in the WoB thread, and it seemed moderately on-point

 

 

Q:  Will Allomancy affect Shardblades?

A:  It cannot affect Shardblades.  Well, cannot is a strong term.  Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.  Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people whering Shardplate to the ceiling.  In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help.  Duralumin with a strong Push would probably do it.

 

While I still hold to the theory of Plate being some kind of super-fabrial, I think it's telling that someone asked him about Shardblades, and he essentially answered the question with Shardplate as an example.  Also that Shardplate has innate Investiture seems important.

[Harakeke]

Not really. With fabrials, AFAIK, the gems are used as holders for Stormlight. With Shardplate, the gems probably serve a similar function to the gems on Shardblades. They form a partial Nahel bond with the wearer, allowing for the Plate to adapt to the wielder.

 

Technically, fabrial gems capture and imprison specific types of spren, which in turn infuse the gem with Stormlight.

 

Both fabrials and Nahel bonds allow humans to use Stormlight in to varying degrees -- the main difference seems to be that the Nahel bond is consensual on the part of the spren, while fabrials are not.  This could explain why fabrials are not as powerful as the Surgebinding powers they mimic.

 

I'd bet that the original Shardplate was powered by Stormlight (Investiture?) channeled directly through the Radiants' Nahel bonds, whereas the modern versions need gemstone "batteries" to bridge the gap.  I suspect that modern Shardblades work similarly -- the screaming isn't just because you're holding a dead spren -- it's that you're holding a dead spren with a live spren trapped inside its corpse!   For all we know, the same spren could have been stuck in there for what... thousands of years (since people first put gemstones in the pommels)? 

[Aether he/him]

Technically, fabrial gems capture and imprison specific types of spren, which in turn infuse the gem with Stormlight.

I'd bet that the original Shardplate was powered by Stormlight (Investiture?) channeled directly through the Radiants' Nahel bonds, whereas the modern versions need gemstone "batteries" to bridge the gap.  I suspect that modern Shardblades work similarly -- the screaming isn't just because you're holding a dead spren -- it's that you're holding a dead spren with a live spren trapped inside its corpse!   For all we know, the same spren could have been stuck in there for what... thousands of years (since people first put gemstones in the pommels)? 

There is no indication that they trap Spren in the gemstones placed in the pommels of dead Shardblades - at least not as I remember.

[Vessyr]

I am not siding with either side on this yet, but I do have some interesting points to make that haven't been made yet.

 

Adolin fell into Stonestance himself, smashing his Blade down again and again against Abrobadar’s raised sword until he heard grunts, curses.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive) (Kindle Locations 13183-13184). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

1 - Pieces of the armor tend to crack after a hit or two, but no one mentions that happening to shardblades. This makes me think maybe the plate is weaker and is a fabrial and not spren.

 

2 - Shallan has Renarin try to scratch the keyhole at the Oath Gate with his shardblade from which she deduces that they are the same material. So either it is a fabrial or the spren don't have to be bonded in the same way as the blades to create other things, and the keyhole didn't scream when she touched it.

 

3 - If the armor is really just a fabrial then why after 100 desolations is it still so rare? They should have been making it for everyone and not just the Knights Radiant all that time. Some help is better than none. Taln was taking about helping them prepare with the making of weapons and armor. He dimisses the idea of steel because it would take longer than crafting them from bronze. By now he should know how to craft shardplate if it is indeed a fabrial. Even if he thought they could only make a few, I think it would have been worth mentioning in his ramblings.

[Vasteel he/him]

The only issue I have with it being a fabrial and not a spren (or atleast involving them in some way) is during one of Dalinars visions the helmets seem to appear out of no where. Just a puff of mist and it appears (similar to a shard blade). Where as the current shard plate, you have to carry it around with you.

 

Just a thought

[Harakeke]

There is no indication that they trap Spren in the gemstones placed in the pommels of dead Shardblades - at least not as I remember.

 

Not explicitly -- but there are strong indications that the pommel functions as the key to some sort of (Transformation?) fabrial that bonds the Blade to its Bearer. 

 

Shardblades essentially comprise a Stormlight-infused gemstone surrounded by metal, which is the same basic setup as other fabrials. Dead Shardblades only started doing the whole bonding/summoning thing once people started putting gemstones in the pommel. Until then they were just really really sharp. Since we know that fabrial gems contain trapped spren, it seems likely that the Shardblade pommel gems also contain live spren.

 

 

“Yes. If  this  is  true,  it means  the Blades aren’t powered by  the stones. Credit goes  to Rushu, who

asked why a Shardblade can be summoned and dismissed even if its gemstone has gone dun. We had

no  answers,  and  she  spent  the  last  few weeks  in  contact with Kharbranth,  using  one  of  those  new

information stations. She came up with a scrap from several decades after the Recreance which talks

about men  learning  to  summon  and  dismiss  Blades  by  adding  gemstones  to  them,  an  accident  of

ornamentation it seems.”

 

“We  had  been  assuming  that  somehow,  the  strength  and  lightness  of  the  Blades  was  a  fabrial

construct  powered  by  the  gemstone,”  Navani  said.  “This  might  not  be  the  case.  It  seems  the

gemstone’s  purpose  is only used  in  initially bonding  the Blade—something  that  the Radiants didn’t

need to do.”

“Wait. They didn’t?”

“Not  if  this  fragment  is  correct.  The  implication  is  that  the  Radiants  could  always  dismiss  and

summon Blades—but  for  a  time  the  ability was  lost.  It was only  recovered when  someone  added  a

gemstone to his Blade. The fragment says the weapons actually shifted shape to adopt the stones, but

I’m not certain if I trust that.

 

 

 

 

 

“Fine,” Adolin said, striding back into the room. “You. Moash, was it? I guess those Shards are yours, now. Congratulations. You now outrank ninety percent of Alethkar. Pick yourself a family name and ask to join one of the houses under Dalinar’s banner, or start your own if you are inclined.”

Moash glanced at Kaladin for confirmation. Kaladin nodded. The tall bridgeman walked to the side of the room, reaching out a hand to rest his fingers on the Shardblade. He ran those fingers all the way down to the hilt, then seized it, lifting the Blade in awe. Like most, it was enormous, but Moash held it easily in one hand. The heliodor set into the pommel flashed with a burst of light.

 

 

“This is for my men,” Amaram said. He took the Shardblade from the cloth, holding it in his hand.

The gemstone at its pommel let out a flash of white light. 

 

Salinor let the Blade slip from his fingers. Adolin took it and knelt beside Salinor, holding the weapon with pommel toward the man. 

“Break the bond.”

Salinor hesitated, then touched the ruby at the weapon’s pommel. The gemstone flashed with light. The bond had been broken. Adolin stood, ripping the ruby free, then crushing it in a gauntleted hand. That wouldn’t be needed, but it was a nice symbol.

 

 

 

She tapped the three gemstones—she’d placed her smokestone into the third setting.  Some other

fabrials, like spanreeds, worked when you tapped the stones. 

 

 

 

At first there was nothing. And then stone.

Adolin thought he caught a brief glimpse of mist coalescing—like the moment a Shardblade appeared—as a massive wall sprang into existence.

 

Wind blew in the opening in the wall, and Syl’s ribbon of light became mist, a form she often took.

Silver mist, which grew larger, coalesced before Kaladin, extending into his hand.

Glowing,  brilliant,  a  Shardblade  emerged  from  the mist,  vivid  blue  light  shining  from  swirling

patterns along its length.

 

 

[Shaggai]

The only issue I have with it being a fabrial and not a spren (or atleast involving them in some way) is during one of Dalinars visions the helmets seem to appear out of no where. Just a puff of mist and it appears (similar to a shard blade). Where as the current shard plate, you have to carry it around with you.

 

Just a thought

It's something more than a fabrial and less than a Nahel spren. It's a lesser spren, put with consent into a suit of armor. The spren shapes the armor and provides the powers, but being non-Nahel it doesn't reach full sentience or become fully indestructible. The gems form a temporary bond, like with Shardblades. The Radiants just did it better.

[Shaggai]

Okay, I'm going to compile the evidence for (and a little against) my theory. Here it is:

1. The unique shape of Shardplate. Similarly to Shardblades, the Plate-spren would create their own physical manifestation. This is the same mechanism as Soulcasting, which is convincing a spren (in the case of an object, the spren of the object) to have a different physical manifestation.

2. The mist. Shardblades, the Shardplate in the visions, and Soulcasting all cause some physical manifestation of a spren to change, visibly looking like mist.

3. The effects of Plate on its wearers. Plate gives enhanced speed and strength, and can heal. These are the same effects as infusing a person with Stormlight. Therefore, the Plate contains a Cognitive entity (a spren) to provide the Plate with the benefits of Stormlight. These facts explain why Plate fails without Stormlight.

4. The adaptation of Plate to its wearer. The Plate obviously has some sort of bond with the wearer. This is probably done through the gemstones, which are known to be able to create such a bond.

5. Shardplate can block Shardblades, but it cracks. Shardblades proper are indestructible. However, Shardplade cracks, suggesting that it contains a highly reinforced physical object as opposed to a pure physical manifestation of a Cognitive entity. The reinforcement is done by spren.

There are, however, some possible holes, which might be evidence against it.

1. Why did Shardplate glow? I suspect there was some sort of ritual that more fully bonded the Plate with its bearer, so it would glow.

2. Why does it interfere with Lashings? The same reason, perhaps, as above. It didn't do so back during the Desolations, because the armor was bonded.

3. Why doesn't the Stormlight in the Plate heal the Plate when damaged, during normal combat? I don't actually know. This may be by design - healing would consume Stormlight, and running out of Stormlight could be devastating on the battlefield. Again, these answers are speculation and aren't part of the main theory.

So. There you have it. Any thoughts on how I'm obviously wrong about all of this, and here's why?

[shadewolf]

3 - If the armor is really just a fabrial then why after 100 desolations is it still so rare? They should have been making it for everyone and not just the Knights Radiant all that time. Some help is better than none. Taln was taking about helping them prepare with the making of weapons and armor. He dimisses the idea of steel because it would take longer than crafting them from bronze. By now he should know how to craft shardplate if it is indeed a fabrial. Even if he thought they could only make a few, I think it would have been worth mentioning in his ramblings.

 

Well because the method to make the shardplate is very complicated and roshar doesn't have enough of an understanding of the science and mathematics that dictates their world to replicate such devices. Do you think people of our past could replicate a flashlight if you went back in time and gave them one. it would take ages for researchers to develop the theory to understand the physics of why the thing lights, the electrical engineering to design the circuitry, the chemical engineering to make the casing(and probably the IC).

 

Plus before the knight radiants were formed, the desolation's decimated the population, and caused widespread destruction, probably causing a huge loss of scientific progress. this seems consistent with taln's ramblings, where if a society could forget how to forge steel, and didn't have time to learn how(more importantly, create the tools to forge steel), they definitely won't be able to produce shardplate. Also the Radiants seemingly didn't share there research with outsiders, otherwise why didn't we see more hints of technolgy in dalinars vision of the battle with the midnight essence. We saw a fabreial that healed people, yet fire seemed to be the primary tool for cooking and heating.

[kaellok he/him]

There are, however, some possible holes, which might be evidence against it.

1. Why did Shardplate glow? I suspect there was some sort of ritual that more fully bonded the Plate with its bearer, so it would glow.

2. Why does it interfere with Lashings? The same reason, perhaps, as above. It didn't do so back during the Desolations, because the armor was bonded.

3. Why doesn't the Stormlight in the Plate heal the Plate when damaged, during normal combat? I don't actually know. This may be by design - healing would consume Stormlight, and running out of Stormlight could be devastating on the battlefield. Again, these answers are speculation and aren't part of the main theory.

So. There you have it. Any thoughts on how I'm obviously wrong about all of this, and here's why?

 

2.  See my post with above, with WoB on Plate and Lashings.  Affecting someone wearing Plate is difficult because it is an item with innate investiture.  We only have Szeth's viewpoint that wearing Plate interferes with his lashings.  Szeth also knew that a limb killed by a Blade could not be healed.  While Szeth may know a lot, he is also wrong about things.

 

 

Q:  Szeth in the prologue of book one says he can't heal from a Shardblade wound, but Kaladin can.  What is the distinction there?

A:  You should be looking to see if you can find other distinctions between what Szeth says and what happens to Kaladin, because there's three or four big inconsistencies.

 

Q:  What about Kaladin getting sliced with the Shardblade and then being able to rejuvenate.

A:  That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of Shardblades and the Shardblade he has.

Q:  Which is an Honorblade, right?

A:  I can't say, but Szeth says in book one you can't heal a Shardblade wound with Stormlight. There are other very big but subtle discrepancies between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does.

 

We have no evidence that the Heralds wore Plate.  We know (at least some of) the Radiants wore Plate.  We know the Radiants did not have a problem flying while wearing Plate.  I think that, specific to Windrunners at the very least, while you are wearing Plate then it won't affect your Lashings; the Honorblade being the source of Szeth's Surges is what created his issue.  One of those issues could very easily have been "sucked away so much Stormlight that the Honorblade no longer had enough to fuel its powers, due to the severe inefficiencies required by lack of a Nahel bond."

[Shaggai]

2.  See my post with above, with WoB on Plate and Lashings.  Affecting someone wearing Plate is difficult because it is an item with innate investiture.  We only have Szeth's viewpoint that wearing Plate interferes with his lashings.  Szeth also knew that a limb killed by a Blade could not be healed.  While Szeth may know a lot, he is also wrong about things.

 

 

We have no evidence that the Heralds wore Plate.  We know (at least some of) the Radiants wore Plate.  We know the Radiants did not have a problem flying while wearing Plate.  I think that, specific to Windrunners at the very least, while you are wearing Plate then it won't affect your Lashings; the Honorblade being the source of Szeth's Surges is what created his issue.  One of those issues could very easily have been "sucked away so much Stormlight that the Honorblade no longer had enough to fuel its powers, due to the severe inefficiencies required by lack of a Nahel bond."

 

Maybe, but the glow and the lashings would both be explained by some sort of extra bond required for Plate to fully function.

[Vaspin]

I have a problem with both theories. 

 

People who say Shardplate is made from spren aren't considering that spren are already take the form of Shardblade( weapons). Syl, herself, becomes a Shardweapon and interacts with Kaladin in that way. He even makes note of how she retains the physical nature of whatever form she's in( she flies as a ribbon, walks as a person, floats as a leaf). Also, if the spren were somehow able to be both blade and plate why wouldn't Kaladin have an interaction with the "dead" plate, like he does the dead-spren Shardblades. None of it adds up.

 

And trying to say it's a fabrial also seems wrong. The entire Nahel bond is a matter of Investiture. You breath in Stormlight, spren become weapons, it's an organic process. In-book and Mr. Sanderson both have evidence which points towards magic systems not being able to directly effect Invested objects. Voidbinding and the Surges have no effect on Shardplate. Not to mention when an actual Radiant is wearing Plate it has been shown to act differently than other non-Radiants.

 

I think it's more likely Plate is an inherently Invested object formed from the Nahel bond, but not from a spren. Syl told Kaladin that the nature of their bond is one in which she is "....taking something from him. And is giving him something in return." (WoK, Chapter 57). She also tells him he is able to use and wield Stormlight far more effectively than someone who is not spren-bonded. All evidence to say a Radiants body changes while being spren-bonded. Fabrials seem to be more an invention of men, while the ability to use surges is completely a matter of Investiture.

 

Think about it, a Radiant adorned in Plate and wielding a Blade is a fully externally-Invested person. One part from the spren and the other from himself.

[Aether he/him]

Vaspin makes some excellent points in pointing out the flaws in the "Shardplate is Spren" theory. I was originally planning to prove y'all wrong about the Shardplate is Spren theory, but after diving into the WoBs from theoryland that talks about the nature of Shardplate, I am no longer that sure. Permit me to just cite them all while I ponder on this for a while longer:

b4dave ()

My question is, why are they called Shardblades/Shardplate? Is it because they are a splinter of the the Shard Honor, or is there something more to them than that?
Brandon Sanderson
You are on the right track.
<source>

PricklyBear

Is there a functional/structural difference between modern-day Shardplate and the stuff the Radiants wore? Did the Radiants have to use infused gems to keep their suits going or could they just 'breathe in' Stormlight and feed the suit off of their 'inhaled' reserves?
Brandon Sanderson
Something is different. You will find out what.
<source>

 

 

 

RIT

Alright, glowing Shardplate and retractable helmets. Is that a similar origin of the Shardblades—
Brandon Sanderson
There's a similarity, but they are also very different.
RIT
Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and how they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.
Brandon Sanderson
No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly.
<source>

Question

Is there a difference between the Shardplate of the Radiants and the current Shardplate?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
<source>

Edited April 22, 2014 by Aether

[Argent he/him]

I think it's almost entirely safe to rule out the option that Shardplates are the Radiants' spren manifest in the physical realm. I, however, maintain that it's still very possible that the Plate is either a fabrial or a fabrial-like construct, but powered by the living spren, not one trapped inside a gem + Stormlight.

[Vaspin]

I think it's almost entirely safe to rule out the option that Shardplates are the Radiants' spren manifest in the physical realm. I, however, maintain that it's still very possible that the Plate is either a fabrial or a fabrial-like construct, but powered by the living spren, not one trapped inside a gem + Stormlight.

 

It doesn't work thematically though. Being able to Invest Stormlight through spren of Honor/Cultivation is about what do you stand for. Holding to specific principles is what allows you to Invest and realizing them to the fullest brings you to the pinnacle of surgebinding abilities. Not through an external means would you gain another level of Investiture. Also fabrials are a invention of men, while Plate is an inherently Invested object. If it were to be true, it would be a deus ex machina type of situation I think

[Argent he/him]

Hmm, I don't follow. Keeping true to your Order's Immortal Words is what allows for a spren to come and stick a Nahel bond in your spiritweb - a bond that stays there as long as you don't violate the Ideals. Where is all the stuff about Plate being inherently Invested object and gaining another level of Investiture coming from? 

 

Also, I don't see how fabrials being man-made affects anything - the Ryshadium don't come from the Radiants or their spren either, but the knights were pretty happy using them, why would Plate be any different?

[Vasteel he/him]

Again I find myself agreeing with Argent. My own little theory was just Nahel bond powered Shardplate which could kind of be used as a battery for surgebinding. I figured, spren manifesting into shardplate in the physical realm for the plate and the blade would have been too simple and uncreative for Brandon to do.

[Shaggai]

I have a problem with both theories. 

 

People who say Shardplate is made from spren aren't considering that spren are already take the form of Shardblade( weapons). Syl, herself, becomes a Shardweapon and interacts with Kaladin in that way. He even makes note of how she retains the physical nature of whatever form she's in( she flies as a ribbon, walks as a person, floats as a leaf). Also, if the spren were somehow able to be both blade and plate why wouldn't Kaladin have an interaction with the "dead" plate, like he does the dead-spren Shardblades. None of it adds up.

 

And trying to say it's a fabrial also seems wrong. The entire Nahel bond is a matter of Investiture. You breath in Stormlight, spren become weapons, it's an organic process. In-book and Mr. Sanderson both have evidence which points towards magic systems not being able to directly effect Invested objects. Voidbinding and the Surges have no effect on Shardplate. Not to mention when an actual Radiant is wearing Plate it has been shown to act differently than other non-Radiants.

 

I think it's more likely Plate is an inherently Invested object formed from the Nahel bond, but not from a spren. Syl told Kaladin that the nature of their bond is one in which she is "....taking something from him. And is giving him something in return." (WoK, Chapter 57). She also tells him he is able to use and wield Stormlight far more effectively than someone who is not spren-bonded. All evidence to say a Radiants body changes while being spren-bonded. Fabrials seem to be more an invention of men, while the ability to use surges is completely a matter of Investiture.

 

Think about it, a Radiant adorned in Plate and wielding a Blade is a fully externally-Invested person. One part from the spren and the other from himself.

So which bit of this was referring to my theory?

 

Edit: Well, not "mine" per se. The one I've been arguing.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Shaggai

[Vaspin]

Plate is inherently Invested because other forms of Investiture have no/limited effect on them. You can't voidbind/surgebind the Plate and in every other instance besides Plate, Shardblades effortlessly cut through everything. This relates to Mr. Sanderson Investiture vs. Investiture situations

 

 

 

Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.  Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people whering Shardplate to the ceiling.  In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help.

 

You see this also in Words of Radiance when Adolin realizes he can't be affected by the Listeners stormform voidbinded lightning. Since there's proof of Plate being an Invested object its not far-fetched to claim Radiants acquired it from being bonded to spren, because it's where they get the ability to surgebind and a Shardblade.

 

I'm also not quite clear on your point about the Ryshadium. For one, we have no evidence to say they were used by the Radiants. And also, I'm not saying they wouldn't use fabrials, however, Shardplate seems to be of an entirely different caliber, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunate as it was Sureblood fell to the Voidbinding and the half-shards were pitifully against the honorblade Szeth wielded.

 

@Shaggai: You seemed to be in the camp of an additional spren being involved in the creation of new Plate. If it's more nuanced than that I apologize, but both arguments seem far-fetched considering what we know of Plate and Investiture on Roshar is handled

Edited April 22, 2014 by Vaspin

[Moogle]

Not to mention when an actual Radiant is wearing Plate it has been shown to act differently than other non-Radiants.

 

When was this shown? The only thing I can recall is the female Radiant being able to make her helmet 'disappear', but modern Shardplate comes close to this already (it becomes translucent for the wielder). It seems more likely that the Radiants could just force more power into the Plate, which makes the helmet capable of turning fully transparent (or shifts it into the Cognitive) or something.

 

Oh, and I guess the glowing glyphs, but we see that with Dalinar's Plate seemingly glowing when he saves Elhokar in TWOK. He was probably just breathing in minute quantities of Stormlight at that time, and if he breathed in more, it would have revealed the glyphs.

 

So far as I can see, Shardplate acts like it always has, it just isn't as powerful because it uses a few gems in the chest plate rather than having a Radiant power it everywhere by radiating Light.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Argent he/him]

We agree that Plate is (heavily) Invested, but that is pretty much the only thing we agree on... 

 

From what I understand, you were making the claim that because fabrials are an "invention of men", and Plate is "inherently Invested," then Plate cannot be a fabrial. Which makes no sense to me, because Nightblood is both an invention of men and a pretty Invested object. So there's that.

 

Then, you think that because Plate is Invested, it has to have come from the spren bond - which I agree with, but not in the way you do. I do think the bond is responsible for the Plate, but it's solely responsible for it. I find it more compelling to believe that each Radiant crafted a more-or-less regular suit of armor (perhaps with fabrials here and there, effectively turning it into a Half-Shard), and then used the Nahel bond to uniquely augment / modify / power (up) / Invest the suit and turn it into the Shardplate we see in Dalinar's visions. 

 

Ignore the Ryshadium point, I think we misunderstood each other there big time.

[Vaspin]

@Argent

 

Nightblood seems to be one-of-a-kind thing and something like that could only be done with the use of Breath, but I think Breath is unique and special in how it works. It does lend proof to your point, though

 

Crafting the armor just doesn't seem to match how it's portrayed in the story. It leaks Stormlight, it has the ability to fit its wearer, resistant to Investiture, it seemingly reacts to the will of a Radiant, and is also capable of reforming itself. Some of these could be attributed to a spren, but the only spren known to act in this manner are those involved in a Nahel bond. 

 

But I guess it comes down to how we see the nature of this particular magic system working