Zahel has good Breath (spoilers inside)

[Tempus]

Spoiler - Zahel is Vasher from Warbreaker.

We have Word of Brandon that splinters, such as spren, aeon, skaze, and nightblood can form bonds that act similar to Nahel bonds on Roshar, and are fundamentally the same. It struck me that there is one other splinter unaddressed - the Returned.

The splinter is not the Returned, however. The divine breath is. I propose that returned have all formed a bond when dying with the splinter of Divine Breath provided by Endowment. That is why the returned perish when their Divine Breath is consumed, but not when it as merely stored (as demonstrated by Vasher in Warbreaker).

Thus, the reason Vasher can survive via Stormlight on Roshar, is because his Divine Breath acts as a Nahel Bond. The Nahel Bond is the requirement for being able to absorb Stormlight - thus solving how Vasher can absorb Stormlight in the first place. He can then consume the investiture of Stormlight to survive instead of Breath.

Will provide quotes and details upon request later tonight when I'm at my desktop.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Tempus

[RShara she/her]

And here I thought this was going to be a post about halitosis, or Vasher's lack thereof!

[Tempus]

Well, Kalad's Breath was so bad it woke the dead, after all.

[RShara she/her]

Wait, but you said he has GOOD breath!

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

I had taken the reason he could take in Stormlight as Breath to be that he was able to absorb one type of pure Investiture and thus was able to take any kind and use it as he wants. I don't know that a Nahel bond needs to be a part of it.

[Tempus]

I don't think that is sufficient. Breath can only be transferred via the focus of Commands, after all. It's more than just a ball of investiture stuffed into someone. Stormlight also requires that spirit web modification and the Nahel bond. I wonder if a snapped allomancer could take in Stormlight by virtue of their tear?

Edited April 12, 2014 by Tempus

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by their "tear"?

I simply wonder if however the Spiritweb of a Nalthian is composed, is it similar enough to that of a Surgebinder that Stormlight can work like Breath. Are you suggesting that the bond between a Returned and his/her Divine Breath operates as a Nahel bond? If that is the case, could Vasher just step onto Roshar and suck in some Stormlight? Or did he need to form a special type of bond first before he could suck it in?

[Tempus]

In order for some forms of investiture to function, they require a conduit through the spirit web. Strong emotional events cause tears in the spirit web. In allomancy, this is called snapping. On Roshar, the Nahel Bond occurs in the tear on the spirit web.

As for the second, I'm proposing that all Returned are bonded to a splinter which maintains their life, and that any Returned who travelled to Roshar would be able to inhale Stormlight. A regular Nalthian would not be able to, and would require a Nahel bond with a spren. So Vasher could probably use Stormlight immediately, yes.

By extension, an Elantrian with a Seon should be able to absorb Stormlight and use it in place of the Dor to uses Aons on Roshar. this would not work for a non-bonded Elantrian.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Well, Kalad's Breath was so bad it woke the dead, after all.

Kalak's breath is even worse– they use it as a swear. Is the letter K cursed? Let's hope Kaladin washes his mouth.

@OP

While the Divine Breath is a Splinter, it doesn't seem to be sentient like Seons, Spren, or Type Nightblood Awakened Objects. All those are similar Realmatically, all Cognitive Ideas given life through Investiture, while Divine Breaths don't have, as far as we have seen, that Cognitive aspect. I don't think you could bond with it any more than I could bond to Stormlight.

[Patrick Star]

Good Breath?  Guess he chews orbit!

 

 

Also, Stormlight is very similar to Breaths, at least in principle.  This is likely why he can absorb it, and partly why he doesn't go to another planet that he could gain investiture from (the other part is a cheerful, evil-killing sentient sword running amok on Roshar).

[potato]

Does this mean that he can identify people with nahel bonds by sight?

[Patrick Star]

Does this mean that he can identify people with nahel bonds by sight?

 

Not exactly.  He is able to sense spren in the natural world.

 

From his PoV, we know that he knows that there's a weird spren that keeps buzzing around Kaladin, but doesn't know what type of spren it is or that it's part of a Nahel bond (as we know, this is Syl).

 

So yes, he can tell if somebody has a Nahel bond by seeing if they have a spren that follows them around.  However, this is a matter of reasoning, not actually sensing a Nahel bond.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Patrick Star

[Mistdork she/her]

Good Breath?  Guess he chews orbit!

 

 

 

Could this be related to worldhopping? No? Okay, I'll stop making myself look like a fool.

 

Anyway, I have my doubts. Returned are more like Elantrians (and, probably, Heralds), all three of these beings are some kind of living splinter that are also human-beings. Even Lerasium Mistborn are almost splinters. What, do you expect Elend to bond to himself if he were on Roshar so he could use Stormlight for Allomancy (much like the Mists, which are invested to the hilt, too, I guess). The splinters you're talking about Tempus are splinters of a certain kind and work a certain way. They're Cognitive Entities and are thus more cognitively based, by bonding on Roshar, they receive something from the Nahel bond. In the Spren's case, this is sentience (and whatever else), for Nightblood it might be something different. He might become...more spren-like.

 

In the case of the Return, they lack this kind of benefit. Yes, they can absorb Stormlight, and no, we don't know how they would hijack the system, but absorbing Investiture is what Returned too. It's similar to what Nightblood does when pulled, but at a slower rate because they're both Splinters of Endowment... I think it would be way harder for someone like Vasher to Awaken with Stormlight, but not necessarily absorb it. Awakening probably takes some extra...hijacking, it's one thing to hack into a bank account held by someone's grandma, it's another to hack Fort Knox. And yes, that's a horrible analogy, I'm sorry.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

In the case of the Return, they lack this kind of benefit. Yes, they can absorb Stormlight, and no, we don't know how they would hijack the system, but absorbing Investiture is what Returned too. It's similar to what Nightblood does when pulled, but at a slower rate because they're both Splinters of Endowment... I think it would be way harder for someone like Vasher to Awaken with Stormlight, but not necessarily absorb it. Awakening probably takes some extra...hijacking, it's one thing to hack into a bank account held by someone's grandma, it's another to hack Fort Knox. And yes, that's a horrible analogy, I'm sorry.

My current thoughts on this are that you probably could Awaken with Stormlight, but the objects would only follow their Commands for as long as the Stormlight took to dissipate. So a Lifeless could only be reanimated for a few minutes, maybe more with more Stormlight, and smaller objects like a scarf would only last for 30 seconds. The strength of this, of course, would be that it's also far more easy to get Stormlight, so you're much more flexible in your Awakenings.

[Khyrindor he/him]

He can sense Kaladin too, by the fact that he woke up when he was near

[Tempus]

Also, Stormlight is very similar to Breaths, at least in principle.  This is likely why he can absorb it, and partly why he doesn't go to another planet that he could gain investiture from (the other part is a cheerful, evil-killing sentient sword running amok on Roshar).

 

I don't buy it. Stormlight is not similar to breaths in principle. It is in fact very different from Breaths. Stormlight, as far as we know, requires a Nahel Bond to be absorbed. It cannot be absorbed by people otherwise, not even from gems. Stormlight dissipates over time. Stormlight when held grants enhanced healing and physical abilities. Stormlight can not be given to another person. Breaths, however, are born into people. Breaths cannot be taken, only transferred. Breaths are not diminished by their use, or by being held. Breaths do not grant self-healing, enhanced physical abilities. They do grant other abilities, but they seem to be mostly mental.

 

We have absolutely no reason to believe that Vasher can absorb Stormlight just because Breaths and Stormlight both have to do with breathing. As well to say Nightblood can use allomantic powers because he is made out of metal and has investiture. 

 

As for the point about choosing this planet, well, that applies better to my argument - If Returned could just drain any old investiture whenever they felt like it, they could go drain Aons, or the Dor, or metalminds, etc. However, if they can drain stormlight because of their splinter, and other planets don't work... well, Roshar makes a lot of sense then, doesn't it?

 

 

While the Divine Breath is a Splinter, it doesn't seem to be sentient like Seons, Spren, or Type Nightblood Awakened Objects. All those are similar Realmatically, all Cognitive Ideas given life through Investiture, while Divine Breaths don't have, as far as we have seen, that Cognitive aspect. I don't think you could bond with it any more than I could bond to Stormlight.

 

We know from Word of Brandon and from evidence in books that investiture grants sentience. We also know that beings such as shardholders and slivers exist because they attached the power onto their own cognitive aspect before a sentience could spontaneously form. I would suggest that the Returned were bonded immediately with the splinter by Endowment, and thus did not have time to develop their own sentience.

 

This is an assumption though, and a good potential flaw in my argument. While it is true that splinters will become sentient if you leave em', and that other similar repositories of investiture were occupied by people like the shards, there's no telling if the latter counts as a Nahel Bond and acts in a similar fashion.

 

 

 

Not exactly.  He is able to sense spren in the natural world.

 

From his PoV, we know that he knows that there's a weird spren that keeps buzzing around Kaladin, but doesn't know what type of spren it is or that it's part of a Nahel bond (as we know, this is Syl).

 

Heightenings grant lifesense. Lifesense is actually the ability to detect investiture. It does not detect drabs. It detects people. By first heightening, you can tell roughly how many breaths (how much investiture) a person has. By Fourth, lifesense for people is maxed out. By Seventh, you can tell the investiture of objects. Kaladin's been extra invested - he probably feels different to Vasher than other humans, and the spren around him also probably feels different. Vasher shouldn't have any particular experience with the Radiant Bond itself other than normal Rosharan myth.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

We know from Word of Brandon and from evidence in books that investiture grants sentience. We also know that beings such as shardholders and slivers exist because they attached the power onto their own cognitive aspect before a sentience could spontaneously form. I would suggest that the Returned were bonded immediately with the splinter by Endowment, and thus did not have time to develop their own sentience.

This is an assumption though, and a good potential flaw in my argument. While it is true that splinters will become sentient if you leave em', and that other similar repositories of investiture were occupied by people like the shards, there's no telling if the latter counts as a Nahel Bond and acts in a similar fashion.

I agree with this first paragraph here entirely. I think that if the Divine Breath was somehow left on its own, say, being used to Awaken, then it would become sentient on its own, and certainly be bondable. But without a mind of its own, there really shouldn't be anything to bond to. It's just some Investiture floating around. It's got nothing else, no brain, no thoughts, no sentience. It's just a really big Breath with a fancy name. The only brain it's got is yours, and you're kind of bonded to that by default.

[Khyrindor he/him]

but does Syl have Investitiure?

[Tempus]

PorridgeBrick - I can't quite agree with you, because of these WoB:

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Each Returned has one single superpowered breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter.

 

PUCK

"How is a Splinter different from a Sliver?

...

So, qualitatively, what's the difference?"

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Qualitatively, they're reverses of one another. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power and released it. A Splinter has never been human."

 

So... I think what I'm getting from this is that even if it has no sentience of it's own, it is still closer to being a splinter than a sliver. The bond isn't necessarily cognitive - in fact, we happen to know that it occurs in the spiritual realm (nahel bonds require a tear in the spirit web to bond into). Since sentience is cognitive, it doesn't necessarily follow (though it could) that the important aspect of a bond is sentience.

 

I'd love to ask for a WoB on this -> "Are Returned bonded with their Divine Breath, like how all other known splinters bond?"

 

Either way, I think if it did it would all fit very neatly, much neater than 'Stormlight involves breathing, and on Nalthis they have Breath (which doesn't actually involve breathing, btw), so clearly they'll just work'.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Tempus

[RShara she/her]

Maybe Shardplate is an Awakened non-sentient object?

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I'm inclined to agree that a normal Awakener would be either incapable of using Stormlight, or have go to great lengths to achieve a workaround in order to use it, but that a Returned could simply breathe it in.

 

There was a line in WoR that made me think that Vasher might need to inhale Stormlight on a daily basis to survive, instead of Breaths on a weekly basis.

 

Kaladin: “Have you ever had to choose between two equally distasteful choices?”

Vasher:  “Every day I choose to keep breathing.”

 

Of course, he might just been making a little joke, but I think he's also implying that it's necessary for him to survive.  Of course, this would also require him to be holding on to a few large, well-cut gemstones as the year approaches the Weeping, otherwise he keel over.

 

Here's another thing I'm wondering, will Vasher be able to use Stormlight to Awaken?  I imagine it would drain from the stuff, unlike Breaths, but sometimes you only need something to be Awakened for a few seconds or minutes.

[Tempus]

That is an interesting quote. I assumed that he was talking about consuming Breath - living involves him constantly devouring the Breaths of others. That actually suggests that Vasher DOES NOT use Stormlight, that he just brought a couple thousand Breaths with him as a nice stockpile. Hmmm.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Pretty sure he uses Stormlight, the WoB is:

Q:  How long has Zahel been slumming it on Roshar?
A:  For quite a long time, on this planet he can get something quite easily that is much harder to get where he came from.

 

The question is, how often does he need it?

[entropicscholar he/him]

I LOVE this theory, and agree with Tempus wholeheartedly.

 

two related questions though:

 

1. We know from Hoid/Wit that the heightenings function on Roshar. (He mentions to Kaladin that it's much easier to tune his instrament, now that he has perfect pitch from the 2nd heightening.)

Does the use of Heightenings on Roshar require stormlight? That is to say, do they only work while you're consuming stormlight to power them, or do they work continuously from the stored up Breath you have, just like on Nathis?

Can Stormlight be used to raise you to a greater heightening? and then stick around just like if it were breath?

 

2.

 

Anyway, I have my doubts. Returned are more like Elantrians (and, probably, Heralds), all three of these beings are some kind of living splinter that are also human-beings. Even Lerasium Mistborn are almost splinters. What, do you expect Elend to bond to himself if he were on Roshar so he could use Stormlight for Allomancy (much like the Mists, which are invested to the hilt, too, I guess). The splinters you're talking about Tempus are splinters of a certain kind and work a certain way. They're Cognitive Entities and are thus more cognitively based, by bonding on Roshar, they receive something from the Nahel bond. In the Spren's case, this is sentience (and whatever else), for Nightblood it might be something different. He might become...more spren-like.

If Lerasium can be considered a non-sentient splinter, can Atium?

Does this mean that Demoux can breath in stormlight because he has previously eaten Atium?

I want to say this is streaching it, but that would be a crazy loophole.

[Mistdork she/her]

2.

If Lerasium can be considered a non-sentient splinter, can Atium?

Does this mean that Demoux can breath in stormlight because he has previously eaten Atium?

I want to say this is streaching it, but that would be a crazy loophole.

 

It's funny, now I (mostly) agree with Tempus on this topic. So, I'll try to answer this, though...

 

Nope, Lerasium isn't quite Invested enough, though it is close... Also, Atium seems to come in different sizes, but I would guess that it doesn't come in a big enough size to be considered a Splinter... (since there are no literal Splinters on Scadrial...though Marsh should be awfully close, at least in terms of power).

 

The only non-sentient Splinters are Divine Breaths (and possibly Honorblades), both of these form bonds, though not much is known about the later (I have some ideas, but it's really just a lot of conjecture at this point). However, because Divine Breaths are Splinters given/deeply bonded with humans, they never form sentience. In this case, the relationship between a Divine Breath and a Returned is much more similar to the relationship between a Shard and its Holder. If a Shard didn't have a holder, it would gain consciousness (and do crazy things) that fits it's Intent, the same is true for a Splinter. When it doesn't have a person holding it, it also gains a consciousness that matches its Intent (or in the case of Nightblood, the Splinter is given an Intent and also forms a conscious to go along with that Intent). Unlike these Splinters, Lerasium (when used) is "used up" when it makes a person into a Mistborn. It doesn't form a bond, there's not quite enough Investiture there and it really doesn't seem like it's in its nature anyway...

 

And yeah, sorry that was probably a bit more than you were expecting (and seems slightly theoretical, that's not good. Whenever I try my hands at that, it goes nowhere fast!)