“I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.”

[hoser]

These are very interesting questions.  What is the purpose of the knights?  How do the orders combine to achieve a greater whole than any order by itself?

Honestly I can't help but wonder if the point of the Windrunners is to keep everybody alive so they can all live to fight another day. ... Windrunners keep everybody alive and breathing, no matter who they are or what they've done, because they need every man they can get for the Desolations. Their job is to keep people alive, and later the other Orders can deal with them.  ...

Is the goal survival? 

 

Where does one draw the line, before they cross the moral threshold? If you protect a man, knowing that if you do - 1,000 or even 10,000 will die tomorrow. What will his oaths demand of him? ...

Without prediction and an ideal of "journey before destination", does right action within a range allow for horrendous possible consequences?

 

It seems to me that the ten orders represent aspects of Honor and Cultivation.  The drives and means for each order are different.  Together, at their best, the orders represent encompassing ideas of H + C. 

 

Leadership and protection seem to me to be found in both H and C, even though they are more apparently "honorable".  Even though Kaladin seems to be striving in a very honorable way,  he helps those around him survive and grow, which seems to be cultivation. 

 

The Lightweaver way is different and less apparently honorable.  Syl dislikes all lies, but Pattern loves "good" lies.  With "good" lies, Shallan achieves very honorable results. 

[Aether]

This.  So totally this.  I agree 100%.

 

I think that some of the reason Kaladin was trying to help assassinate Elhokar were:

 

(1) His comrade-in-arms and friend, Moash, really wanted to, in order to get vengeance.  Kaladin knew that that was the real reason.

(2) His hatred of light-eyes made it easier for him to see only the bad in Elhokar.

(3) By the end, he had convinced himself that Elhokar was responsible for the tragedies in his own family (via Roshone) and he wanted revenge as well.

(4) The "for the good of the kingdom" bit really meant "For the good of that part of the kingdom that was my friends and my family, the jerk."  At least when I read the book, every time Kaladin thought that, I felt an undercurrent of unease along the lines of "Is that really the right was to handle this?"

 

My two cents.

I shall always have an up-vote to spare for a good List.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Aether

[happyman]

Where does one draw the line, before they cross the moral threshold? If you protect a man, knowing that if you do - 1,000 or even 10,000 will die tomorrow. What will his oaths demand of him? I feel like that could be a very tough way of living, always trying to decide which is right and which is wrong. Sometimes not even necessarily which is wrong... more like which is more right? I guess it's all relevant to ones perspective.

 

I'm just excited to see how Brandon continues to grow Kaladin's character with this new oath. I swear to god though. I better see a Kaladin vs. Amaram or I will nerd rage.

 

Wonderful questions.  If I had answers, I wouldn't be sitting here on a random Thursday debating this kind of thing.  I would be actively making the world a better place as a full-time job using those insights.

 

I think one key point here, though, is that protecting Elhokar really didn't mean letting people get killed.  It had been made abundantly clear that Elhokar was a threat to those around him if somebody didn't do something, but Dalinar and Kaladin together could do that something, and it didn't have to be by killing the king.  That was pure vengeance and deep down Kaladin knew it.

 

Edited for clarity of my last point.

Edited April 17, 2014 by happyman

[Aether]

It should also be said that there isn't a single bad bone in Elhokar. He really tries his best to do good, but he is frequently misguided, ends up making mistakes by trying to be strong, etc. He wants to be a good king, has recently acquired enough insight to know that he is not and is now actively trying to find someone who can teach him (as opposed to just do things for him as Dalinar does). The scene where he seeks help from Kaladin was one of my favourites.

 

While Elhokar has wrought quite a bit of chaos and misery through his incompetence, he has not done so intentionally. And now that he has realised this, he is trying to get better. For a Windrunner, this makes all the difference in the world.

[Moogle]

It should also be said that there isn't a single bad bone in Elhokar. He really tries his best to do good, but he is frequently misguided, ends up making mistakes by trying to be strong, etc.

 

I think we have to disagree here. Elhokar gets angry easily, and is petulant. He's like a spoiled child that never grew up when he's demanding Kaladin's execution because he feels jealous. Maybe he recognizes this and is striving to fix it, but he has definite character issues. He's not a well-meaning bumbling incompetent, he's a well-meaning bumbling incompetent that has deep seated insecurity and jealousy issues and enjoys forgetting the "well-meaning" point in the heat of moment and only remembers when he's drunk. Without Dalinar, his rule would be unmitigated disaster... so what's the point of keeping him around as king? He brings nothing to the role. He should abdicate.

[Shaggai]

These are very interesting questions.  What is the purpose of the knights?  How do the orders combine to achieve a greater whole than any order by itself?

Is the goal survival?

The goal of all the Orders is the survival of humanity in the face of Desolation. The Windrunners' goal is to lead and to protect their men. Others can do the non-protective killing, but the Windrunners keep their men alive to keep fighting.

[Observer]

To whom is Elhokar going to give the throne? Dalinar? Too busy leading the KR, like he'd even take the throne if that weren't the case. Kaladin? Worst king ever as things currently stand, though as a Windrunner maybe later. There just isn't a person to give the throne to right now, and Elhokar is at least a decent person who has potential to grow into a better one. I don't like him much, but I think writing him off as a poison to Alethkar this early in the series is a major mistake.

[Aether]

I think we have to disagree here. Elhokar gets angry easily, and is petulant. He's like a spoiled child that never grew up when he's demanding Kaladin's execution because he feels jealous. Maybe he recognizes this and is striving to fix it, but he has definite character issues. He's not a well-meaning bumbling incompetent, he's a well-meaning bumbling incompetent that has deep seated insecurity and jealousy issues and enjoys forgetting the "well-meaning" point in the heat of moment and only remembers when he's drunk. Without Dalinar, his rule would be unmitigated disaster... so what's the point of keeping him around as king? He brings nothing to the role. He should abdicate.

I might have... understated... his incompetence and petulance. You're completely right that he is spoiled and jealous to the point of harming others, but I think his drunken confession and growing respect for Kaladin might finally lead him down a better path. Or at least that is what I'm hoping for. I have, as many on this forum do, a soft spot for the Kholins. Even Elhokar.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Aether

[Ati]

I think we have to disagree here. Elhokar gets angry easily, and is petulant. He's like a spoiled child that never grew up when he's demanding Kaladin's execution because he feels jealous. Maybe he recognizes this and is striving to fix it, but he has definite character issues. He's not a well-meaning bumbling incompetent, he's a well-meaning bumbling incompetent that has deep seated insecurity and jealousy issues and enjoys forgetting the "well-meaning" point in the heat of moment and only remembers when he's drunk. Without Dalinar, his rule would be unmitigated disaster... so what's the point of keeping him around as king? He brings nothing to the role. He should abdicate.

I agree with this.  I also agree with Aether's point that he appears to be on a path towards improvement.  Worst case scenario though, based on your point, Moogle, Elhokar was drunk A LOT at the end of WoR.  Could be the silver lining here.  

 

[WitSpren]

Well, I personally am a little harder on Mosh and Kal for trying to kill Elhokar.      The more that you think about it, the stupider it is.

 

Elhokar - may not be great, but he is trying and now taking advice from Delinar.   

 

First -   Maintaining him in place is a major act for stability which is important.

 

Second -  Both the assassian in white  AND  many of the other Highprinces want Delinar dead.

 

Third - If Delinar was killed - who would be the next in line - Not Adolin - he's mostly good, but he is not the leader that his dad is and would already have his hands full as the Brightlord of his fathers estates.

 

Fourth - With both Elhokar and Delinar gone - who would REALLY take over.       If you need a small himt, his name starts with Sad and ends with eas.

 

 

 

They both know that at least TWO MAJOR forces are already working to take down Delinar.     So killing Elhokar is basically giving the kingdom to Sadeas.     That is just so so stupid!   

 

Who has the weakest army at this time - Delinar!        Who is considered to be massively delusinary and mentially unstable - Delinar

 

If Elhokar was dead, Sadeas would immediately move from trying to assassinate Delinar to a short quick overpowering military attack to take down the Mad dog - for the GOOD of the country.      He already had most of the Highprinces in control.     Who would even try to stop him - No one!

   

 

I can see Moash being this stupid and blinded by his hate.       But Kal is supposed to be a pretty bright character and very insightful.    But  he did not show it here.

 

 

 

Edited to add additional justification:

Edited April 18, 2014 by WitSpren

[Vasteel]

I'm not saying he needs to necessarily die. I'm just saying I wouldn't be sad if he did. His possibly illegitimate child would suffice as a better ruler. Probably less whining and crying too.

[Caldain]

Well, I personally am a little harder on Mosh and Kal for trying to kill Elhokar.      The more that you think about it, the stupider it is.

 

Elhokar - may not be great, but he is trying and now taking advice from Delinar.   

 

First -   Maintaining him in place is a major act for stability which is important.

 

Second -  Both the assassian in white  AND  many of the other Highprinces want Delinar dead.

 

Third - If Delinar was killed - who would be the next in line - Not Adolin - he's mostly good, but he is not the leader that his dad is and would already have his hands full as the Brightlord of his fathers estates.

 

Fourth - With both Elhokar and Delinar gone - who would REALLY take over.       If you need a small himt, his name starts with Sad and ends with eas.

 

 

 

They both know that at least TWO MAJOR forces are already working to take down Delinar.     So killing Elhokar is basically giving the kingdom to Sadeas.     That is just so so stupid!   

 

Who has the weakest army at this time - Delinar!        Who is considered to be massively delusinary and mentially unstable - Delinar

 

If Elhokar was dead, Sadeas would immediately move from trying to assassinate Delinar to a short quick overpowering military attack to take down the Mad dog - for the GOOD of the country.      He already had most of the Highprinces in control.     Who would even try to stop him - No one!

   

 

I can see Moash being this stupid and blinded by his hate.       But Kal is supposed to be a pretty bright character and very insightful.    But  he did not show it here.

 

 

 

Edited to add additional justification:

 

Kaladin might be a smart guy but a politician, he isn't.  I don't think he understands or cares about the nuances of Lighteye politics.  He generally hates the Lighteyes so I don't think he's subscribing to the Kholinar Times

[Observer]

Please note that nowhere in here does it mention "I will kill people I like, if they don't do what's right". It simply states that Windrunners will protect everybody, so long as it's the right thing to do. This does not mean that they will kill the wrongdoers, not at all. They just won't waste time and energy defending somebody who is doing wrong. If another Windrunner feels that the bad guy is doing the right thing, they can help. The end result of this is, as I said before, everybody living to kill Voidbringers another day. This is where Kaladin went wrong. His job isn't to go and depose rulers and ruin monarchies. His job is to keep everything stable while somebody who is actually an expert in said field comes in and does their job.

[LorrdWolf]

"Does anyone else find the third oath a little disturbing?  "

I realize I am coming to this topic rather late , but I think it is the perfect 3rd ideal.  It says that protecting people is not about who they are, what they have done, or what the Wind Runner thinks of the person.  It says that protecting people is about doing what is right, whether or not the Wind Runner likes it.  If you promise to protect someone, anyone, you don't to change your mind just because the person is not nice, or even reprehensible.  As long as protecting the person is right, the Wind Runner will do it.

LorrdWolf

Edited November 27, 2017 by LorrdWolf
Add a quote

[HipsterStick]

To SOME people, it IS very wishy-washy. However, isn't that the point?

There are different orders of the Knights Radiant for a reason- the orders encompass various values and beliefs of the Knights themselves. They all have their own beliefs regarding right and wrong. For example, at the end of Words of Radiance:

Spoiler

Adolin kills Sadeas

Which, of course, is very much against the law- something the Skybreakers wouldn't like. Some people, though, would argue that he was right to do it- I believe Sanderson said that some of the orders of the Knights Radiant would agree with his choice.

It's all about perspective. Kaladin thinks the oath fits, and so does the Stormfather.

[OB SPOILERS AHEAD]

Spoiler

Besides, doesn't Teft's oath at the end of Oathbringer pretty much proof that there's some variation in individual oaths?

 

[Housedunn]

Quote

 

[OB]teft says a better form of it in oathbringer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I will protest the ones I hate. Even... even if the one I hate the most... is... myself"(Sanderson 1138).

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Housedunn
Added a quote

[Landis963]

On 12/2/2017 at 0:34 AM, Housedunn said:

[OB]teft says a better form of it in oathbringer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I will protest the ones I hate. Even... even if the one I hate the most... is... myself"(Sanderson 1138).

 

For future reference: the eye icon, when writing a new post, creates a spoiler box.  Very handy.  Like so:  

Spoiler

Hi!  Welcome to the Shard!  

 

[Housedunn]

Thank you