The Shard of Darkness

[Fanghur Rahl]

6 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Draginon @Fanghur Rahl I don't know why you guys think that there needs to be another "evil" Shard. Brandon has specifically talked about how he doesn't consider any of the Shards to truly be evil. When certain Vessels hold them and influence the intent, then you can get into whether or not their evil, but the intents of the Shards are not evil by themselves. If there is going to be a big bad I'm a huge fan of it being Autonomy, but I don't think there necessarily needs to be a big bad.

Yeah, well, Brandon also said that Ruin was merely a personification of entropy, which is trivially false. At any rate, insofar as what people usually mean by terms like ‘evil’ or ‘malevolent’, I think Shards can certainly be meaningfully called that. I personally can’t think of any realistic scenario in which the Shard Odium wouldn’t turn its vessel into a monster eventually, and the same goes for hypothetical Shards like ‘Jealousy’ or ‘Avarice’ or ‘Chaos’.

 

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There's probably going to be a shard of "knowledge" or "scholarliness" or some such. Something related to knowledge/thought. 

I personally like the name ‘Aptitude’ for that. I think it has a better ring to it than “Ingenuity”.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Draginon]

12 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Draginon @Fanghur Rahl I don't know why you guys think that there needs to be another "evil" Shard. Brandon has specifically talked about how he doesn't consider any of the Shards to truly be evil. When certain Vessels hold them and influence the intent, then you can get into whether or not their evil, but the intents of the Shards are not evil by themselves. If there is going to be a big bad I'm a huge fan of it being Autonomy, but I don't think there necessarily needs to be a big bad.

I just think of it more the Vessel being bad and how they twisted the intent, like how Rayse was already considered a bad person before getting Odium, so what would happen if someone even worse than Rayse became a Shard as well and the intent just brought the worst part of them to the forefront, since Rayse could've had some nice moments but the intent 'suppressed' his nice qualities.

@Fanghur Rahl On a Lovecraft world: Now that would be a scary world. There'd probably be lots of body horror involved with that investiture and could you imagine it being combined with hemalurgy and Dahkor? Maybe I hat Shard would be called Horror or something.

[Fanghur Rahl]

Irrational, mindless hatred is almost universally considered to be a very bad thing, and that’s basically what the Shard or Odium is. 

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Irrational, mindless hatred is almost universally considered to be a very bad thing, and that’s basically what the Shard or Odium is. 

Except that's not necessarily what the shard of Odium is. It's just how it's being interpreted as by its current vessel. To say that it's irrational is also fairly incorrect. A large part of Odium's actions is playing off of Rayse's fears and selfishness, which means that someone with different outlooks could use the shard in a more benign way. While it's true that Odium does seem leave a lot less room for positive actions than Cultivation or even Ruin, to say that it would be absolutely bad is very limiting in my opinion.

On Rayse and Odium

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[...]

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

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Valhalla (paraphrased)

Did Odium Splinter all the Shards for the same reason?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Some Shards he Splintered because he feared the Shard itself, and some Shards he targeted because he feared the Vessel. He was working his way down his list in order of the Shards and Vessels he felt would be most dangerous to his plans until he got stuck on Roshar.

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Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

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[Fanghur Rahl]

I was just referring to the Shard itself being a-rational and mindless, not necessarily the combination of the Shard and its vessel. And as for the whole ‘Odium v. Passion’ debate that you alluded to, my personal take on it is that Odium does embody all the passions, but only their negative sides. My opinion is that Odium and Devotion are polar opposites; they both embody the passions, but in completely polarized ways. Love and hate, compassion and sadism, empathy and psychopathy, etc. 

BTW, I completely agree with the Ruin vs Cultivation point; they have polar opposite intents.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I was just referring to the Shard itself being a-rational and mindless, not necessarily the combination of the Shard and its vessel.

All the shards are mindless without a vessel.

3 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

And as for the whole ‘Odium v. Passion’ debate that you alluded to, my personal take on it is that Odium does embody all the passions, but only their negative sides

Wasn't my intention to allude to that. I still think he's just hatred, but the enforcement of hatred upon others consumes the other emotions.

 

[Fanghur Rahl]

7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

All the shards are mindless without a vessel.

Wasn't my intention to allude to that. I still think he's just hatred, but the enforcement of hatred upon others consumes the other emotions.

 

‘Mindless’ in the sense of being without any kind of rational basis underlying it not in the sense of being non-personal. Odium simply is the concept of hatred; not hatred for this reason or that reason, just hatred in a vacuum. Sure, Rayse probably imposes his own subjective features on it, but the Shard itself is merely the concept. The point I was trying to make is that I have a very hard time seeing how the Shard of pure hatred stripped from all context couldn’t inevitably result in a being which any rational person would denounce as malevolent, and in that limited service I think that we can say that the Shard itself is also malevolent.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Ripheus23]

On 9/1/2018 at 10:37 AM, imriel452 said:

Reckoners and Cosmere have always been desperate I’m afraid!

They're not that desperate

[Scion of the Mists]

On 9/2/2018 at 8:12 PM, Angsos said:

Wouldn't the Survival Shard be like that?

On 9/2/2018 at 8:33 PM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Honestly, my prediction for the intent of the so-called 'Survival Shard' is 'Prudence'. I think that sounds like a great name for a Shard, and it would certainly be in line with it wanting to give Odium a wide berth.

 

The so-called "survival shard" doesn't have an Intent of Survival - it's just smart enough to avoid conflict.  

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Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

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[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

 

The so-called "survival shard" doesn't have an Intent of Survival - it's just smart enough to avoid conflict.  

I know, that’s precisely why I think ‘Prudence’ is a plausible intent for it; avoiding needless conflict is certainly a prudent course of action.

[imriel452]

Anyone think that the ‘survival shard’ sounds like Kelsier? Aware of what’s going on grand scheme but smart enough to keep out of it until the times are right?

[Calderis]

Before, it was hinted at, but wasn't made explicit, but this new WoB puts the nail in the coffin. Calamity was never intended as a Shard. 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Have you published any books that were in the cosmere that you pulled out?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, The Rithmatist is the most obvious example. The Rithmatist started in the cosmere, and the magic is still very cosmere. And if I were going to have had one in the cosmere, it would have been Rithmatist, because of the way the magic works. I eventually decided I just did not want to canonize that Earth is in any way, shape, or form related to the cosmere and I pulled it out, and I'm glad I did that, but the magic still has a lot of cosmere remnants to it. Steelheart was never in the cosmere.

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[RShara]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:30 AM, imriel452 said:

Anyone think that the ‘survival shard’ sounds like Kelsier? Aware of what’s going on grand scheme but smart enough to keep out of it until the times are right?

Except that the Shard isn't "Survival". And Kelsier? Not interfering in things?  I'm pretty sure he's intrinsically incapable of not meddling.

Edited September 24, 2018 by RShara

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

On 9/3/2018 at 5:59 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

 I personally can’t think of any realistic scenario in which the Shard Odium wouldn’t turn its vessel into a monster eventually.

Well this is the part where I'd say something trite about hatred being the sword we use to protect that which we love, hatred of evil being a good thing, and the difference between hating someone (wishing harm upon them) and disliking someone, but given that you've been vague and said "eventually" there's not really much I can say to a statement with that much wiggle-room.

[Fanghur Rahl]

7 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Well this is the part where I'd say something trite about hatred being the sword we use to protect that which we love, hatred of evil being a good thing, and the difference between hating someone (wishing harm upon them) and disliking someone, but given that you've been vague and said "eventually" there's not really much I can say to a statement with that much wiggle-room.

Irrational, mindless hatred stripped from any context with which to channel it can’t really be seen as a good thing. And I still say that ‘Prudence’ would be a pretty good name for the ‘survival shard’.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Irrational, mindless hatred stripped from any context with which to channel it can’t really be seen as a good thing. 

But it's not mindless or free of context, because the personality and values of a Vessel provide a mind/context for the Shard's power to be expressed. If Rayse were less of a monster (keep in mind that we really only have Hoid's biased recall to tell us what Rayse was like pre-Shattering), then Odium could easily have become a much less misanthropic force.

[Fanghur Rahl]

I mean I guess I might be able to see someone becoming something more like Razer from the Green Lantern series, who’s power comes from hatred, but in his case ‘righteous hatred’. Still, at absolute best, it’d still be an extremely thin line to walk. 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 9/2/2018 at 10:41 PM, StrikerEZ said:

@Draginon @Fanghur Rahl I don't know why you guys think that there needs to be another "evil" Shard. Brandon has specifically talked about how he doesn't consider any of the Shards to truly be evil. When certain Vessels hold them and influence the intent, then you can get into whether or not their evil, but the intents of the Shards are not evil by themselves. If there is going to be a big bad I'm a huge fan of it being Autonomy, but I don't think there necessarily needs to be a big bad.

Many aspects of a personality could be a big problem when isolated from context. With 6 Shards unknown at least one will be a "problem" Shard. The final Cosmere books may need a new antagonist assuming Rayse kicks the bucket and Odium is combined with other Intents by the time SA wraps up. Autonomy would be a good one. Assuming they are Trell, they seem to be poised to be a MB Era 3 villain. They may not be around in the same form for MB era 4. 

While there are still a lot of Cosmere books left, 6 Shards feels like a lot to remain unknown until after SA back 5. I wonder if one will show up sooner than we think. 

@Calderis A Terror shard would be a lot of fun! It could be justifiable as a part of Adolnasium because inspiring fear in his followers if they defy Him could be part of a God's personality and a God could fear for the well being of his followers. Spreading fear, distrust and paranoia would be a cool manifestation of the Intent. As long as we steer clear of having a germaphode Shard that can't stop washing it's hands and makes everyone carry a bottle of Purell with them. 

 

[Ripheus23]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Calamity was never intended as a Shard. 

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

[quoting Sanderson] Steelheart was never in the cosmere.

Actually, this argument is not deductively valid. First, Steelheart is the first book in the series, and as far as I know, Calamity doesn't appear as a character there but as a phenomenon. Second, even if Calamity acted as a character in the first book in the series, this doesn't mean that this being was first conceived of for the series at all, or at least not primordially so (again, characters are sometimes transferred from story to story and transformed drastically). Also, whether Calamity as such was ever the successor to a concept for a Shard was always an aside as far as the argument of this thread was concerned.

[Fanghur Rahl]

I still say that ‘Jealousy’ is probably one of the remaining six. Though I agree that a terror Shard would be awesome too if done correctly; it’s Shardworld would doubtless be something straight out of Lovecraft, although arguably Threnody already is that.

[Solant]

On 9/24/2018 at 4:43 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

And I still say that ‘Prudence’ would be a pretty good name for the ‘survival shard’.

I was under the impression that while that shard is concerned primarily with its own survival, i.e. keeping its head down and doing shardly things, trying not to draw too much attention to itself, the actual Intent of the Shard isn't actually anything to do with survival as much as that it just it's stance regarding the other shards.  It could be anything that isn't driven toward conflict.

I'm not sure if I'm saying this right.

As for the Odium vs Passion argument, I'm on board with it being passion. I don't think he was lying at all when he said that, in fact I'm not sure if he can lie. I think he is just an extreme example of what happens when you have what would otherwise be a fairly benevolent shard and couple it with the most hateful, nasty Vessel you can imagine, and the end result being filtered into the darkest interpretation of Passion you can get. It's hard for me not to think of it in Jedi Dark side/ Light side terms.

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, Solant said:

As for the Odium vs Passion argument, I'm on board with it being passion. I don't think he was lying at all when he said that, in fact I'm not sure if he can lie.

I think he's perfectly capable of lying, especially to himself. 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

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Edited October 2, 2018 by Calderis

[Solant]

That's interesting, and I don't think I've seen that one before. I still wonder if it's that black and white, mostly because of Brandon saying there are no evil shards (which I believe). I understand the idea that intent without context can be perceived as evil, as is the case with Ruin. I also understand the idea of intent shifting once filtered through the personality of the vessel. Perhaps Odium has always been Odium simply because Rayse has always been an evil person. Hoid basically stating as much regarding Rayse's character in the letter is what really convinces me.

I could be way off, but it feels right to me. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

6 hours ago, Solant said:

I was under the impression that while that shard is concerned primarily with its own survival, i.e. keeping its head down and doing shardly things, trying not to draw too much attention to itself, the actual Intent of the Shard isn't actually anything to do with survival as much as that it just it's stance regarding the other shards.  It could be anything that isn't driven toward conflict.

I'm not sure if I'm saying this right.

As for the Odium vs Passion argument, I'm on board with it being passion. I don't think he was lying at all when he said that, in fact I'm not sure if he can lie. I think he is just an extreme example of what happens when you have what would otherwise be a fairly benevolent shard and couple it with the most hateful, nasty Vessel you can imagine, and the end result being filtered into the darkest interpretation of Passion you can get. It's hard for me not to think of it in Jedi Dark side/ Light side terms.

As I recall, Brandon said that it’s desire to survive is only tangentially related to its true intent. Well, if a Shard has the intent of Prudence or something like it, and it knew that there was another Shard going around murdering other Shards, then avoiding Odium would certainly seem to be a prudent course of action; it can’t very well carry out its intent if its dead after all.

As for Odium, I personally see Odium as possibly embodying passion, but only the negative side. I think Devotion likewise embodied passion, but only the positive side. Lust vs love, cruelty vs compassion, hate vs love, etc. Since passion can be either hate-inspired or love-inspired. Odium is hate, Devotion is/was love. Opposite sides of the same coin, just like Ruin and Cultivation.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl