[Theory] Hoid & Invested inaction

[tmnsquirtle]

Alright, I had a crazy thought and need some validation or contradiction, either will work.

Let's start with the facts I'm basing this off of:

1. Hoid has difficulty hurting others. (There's probably a better WoB but this will do for the time being)

2. Harmony has difficulty acting, due to the two opposing intents warring inside him.

Quote

I am the least equipped, of all, to aid you in this endeavor. I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult.

(I stole this quote from another post so I'm not 100% sure where it comes from)

3. This is speculation: Adolnasium was under no such intent constraint. We have no way of knowing this definitively, but it's fair to speculate that this was the case because Roshar was created by Adolnasium and a limit on his actions suggests that it would have been impossible to create Roshar otherwise.

 

Theory: Hoid's inability to harm others comes from being overly invested by a shard. We don't know which one, but it could be any number of them. So, he is (in addition, probably, to his overarching goals) travelling around the cosmere searching for various forms of investiture in order to re-gain invested balance.

[Calderis he/him]

That quote is from his letter to Hoid in OB. 

I don't think that balance would negate the issue your speaking of, if that were the source. If it did, harmony should have the issue negated. His name itself implies balance. 

[tmnsquirtle]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

That quote is from his letter to Hoid in OB. 

I don't think that balance would negate the issue your speaking of, if that were the source. If it did, harmony should have the issue negated. His name itself implies balance. 

Thanks for sourcing that quote! 

That's actually exactly what I mean, though - according to this theory, hoid is suffering from an issue similar to what harmony is dealing with. The problem comes from an inbalance in shardic intent - too much ruin, and you can only do ruinous things. Too much preservation and you can only preserve. Too much of both and it's legitimately hard to act according to both.

The only reason that I think that more magic would solve the issue, instead of less, is that obviously Adonalsium wasn't an inactive force in the universe.

Edited August 31, 2018 by tmnsquirtle
spelling

[Calderis he/him]

Sazed is only slightly unbalanced. If they were capable of canceling each other out, he should be just a little bit pushed towards Ruin... And that's it. 

1 hour ago, tmnsquirtle said:

The only reason that I think that more magic would solve the issue, instead of less, is that obviously Adonalsium wasn't an inactive force in the universe.

I think that's because Adonalsium wasn't effected by the intents at all. He was them. 

I think that Adonalsium was essentially a spren. A mind that arose as a part of the power, and because I that wasn't able to drop it, just be killed a rent apart. 

I think the intents are Adonalsium. He was no more "pressured" by them than we are by our conflicting emotions. 

[Odium's_Shard]

Personally I think that the reason behind Adonalsium being able to take an action is that the Intents do not have to exactly cancel. In the case of Preservation and Ruin, these Intents are clearly opposed, but other Intents may be more nuanced in their cancellation or their interference. Is creating Roshar an act of any one Intent, or merely an expression of will. Perhaps Roshar was created by Adonalsium as it was the will of the people of Yolen, and he could find justification there. Perhaps Adonalsium was able to take action on in the case that the creation/destruction of something was neutral: he did not Preserve Roshar, nor did he Ruin it, per se, he had no Odium nor Devotion. To me it seems more likely that the Intents did not exactly overlap like Preservation versus Ruin: he could Cultivate something without any other Intent going against it, for example.

But to me the most likely reason for Adonalsium's Shattering was that it was unable to act to the desire of the people of Yolen, so 16 conspired to destroy it and take the individual Intents for themselves and act out their desires. Adonalsium should be perfectly balanced, and the exact Splitting of the Intents (even into 16) might just be a particular coincidence of the way it was Shattered.

But it might be likely that a Big Bang or a Creation was conceived at the moment Adonalsium was, and in that moment it created Roshar and the whole system, and it slowly became completely constrained by its unified Intent. Alternatively, if all Intents are present, there is no restriction at all, because the don't cancel, they just balance. He might have no preferences either way, but still be able to take action. Though, that would beg why He would need to be Shattered.

[tmnsquirtle]

On 8/31/2018 at 4:22 PM, Calderis said:

I think that's because Adonalsium wasn't effected by the intents at all. He was them. 

I think that Adonalsium was essentially a spren. A mind that arose as a part of the power, and because I that wasn't able to drop it, just be killed a rent apart. 

I think the intents are Adonalsium. He was no more "pressured" by them than we are by our conflicting emotions. 

This point of view could implies two contrasting hypotheses:

1. If the 16 shards were re-combined, the vessel holding them would have no constraints, since all the various parts of Adolnasium would add up to, essentially, a normal mind; dealing with the 'intent' of a re-constructed shard would be about as difficult as convincing it that your desired outcome is best.

2. If the 16 shards were re-combined, the vessel holding them would be almost completely unable to act due to 16 conflicting intents.

My theory basically assumes (1) to be the case. You definitely make a valid point, but that doesn't change the fact that intents act on vessels in a big way from what we've seen so far in novels.

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

This point of view could implies two contrasting hypotheses:

1. If the 16 shards were re-combined, the vessel holding them would have no constraints, since all the various parts of Adolnasium would add up to, essentially, a normal mind; dealing with the 'intent' of a re-constructed shard would be about as difficult as convincing it that your desired outcome is best.

2. If the 16 shards were re-combined, the vessel holding them would be almost completely unable to act due to 16 conflicting intents.

My theory basically assumes (1) to be the case. You definitely make a valid point, but that doesn't change the fact that intents act on vessels in a big way from what we've seen so far in novels.

And I'm convinced it would be the second. At least... For a long time. 

[+Invocation]

On 9/2/2018 at 10:57 AM, tmnsquirtle said:

This point of view could implies two contrasting hypotheses:

1. If the 16 shards were re-combined, the vessel holding them would have no constraints, since all the various parts of Adolnasium would add up to, essentially, a normal mind; dealing with the 'intent' of a re-constructed shard would be about as difficult as convincing it that your desired outcome is best.

2. If the 16 shards were re-combined, the vessel holding them would be almost completely unable to act due to 16 conflicting intents.

My theory basically assumes (1) to be the case. You definitely make a valid point, but that doesn't change the fact that intents act on vessels in a big way from what we've seen so far in novels.

#2 is the most likely if you are taking them up as 16 Shards, each independant-ish, but that's where a Bondsmith would come into play. Unite the Shards into essentially Adonalsium again and you're pretty much good.

Probably.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Invocation

[tmnsquirtle]

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

#2 is the most likely if you are taking them up as 16 Shards, each independant-ish, but that's where a Bondsmith would come into play. Unite the Shards into essentially Adonalsium again and you're pretty much good.

Probably.

Well, as far as we know, Bondsmiths just manipulate Connection. Do we even know if Connection can be used to reconstruct an entire shard at that scale without some significant effort? I imagine it's more difficult than expected, since otherwise I bet Honor would have been reunited before OB.

Edited September 5, 2018 by tmnsquirtle

[+Invocation]

2 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

Well, as far as we know, Bondsmiths just manipulate Connection. Do we even know if Connection can be used to reconstruct an entire shard at that scale without some significant effort? I imagine it's more difficult than expected, since otherwise I bet Honor would have been reunited before OB.

There's no doubt it would be difficult, but that's the best way I see so far for this to happen.

[Jace21 he/him]

I think that would fall under the "too difficult to be feasible" category.

If you held all the shards and it was possible to rejoin them fully, I don't see why a Bondsmith could do it if you couldnt.

Another point to consider is that by rejoining them and unifying the intents into "essentially Adonalsium" you have juay given the power you hold its own complete consciousness. I dont see it working out well for the vessel at that point.

[tmnsquirtle]

On 9/5/2018 at 6:42 PM, Jace21 said:

Another point to consider is that by rejoining them and unifying the intents into "essentially Adonalsium" you have juay given the power you hold its own complete consciousness. I dont see it working out well for the vessel at that point.

I actually think of this situation as more of something like classic priesthood miracles: in order to use the power, you have to 'convince' the source (Adonalsium) that it's a good idea to use it in that way. Which could absolutely be an interesting story in itself.

[Jace21 he/him]

1 hour ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I actually think of this situation as more of something like classic priesthood miracles: in order to use the power, you have to 'convince' the source (Adonalsium) that it's a good idea to use it in that way. Which could absolutely be an interesting story in itself.

Its possible, but equally likely that the newly reformed being decides it doesnt need you anymore, or wipes your mind as a side effect of reforming etc.

It would definitely be interesting but I dont think I'd risk it unless I knew "Adonalsium" could be safely reformed without danger to the holder of the individual shards.

[tmnsquirtle]

4 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Its possible, but equally likely that the newly reformed being decides it doesnt need you anymore, or wipes your mind as a side effect of reforming etc.

Ooooooohhh, this is interesting. I wonder how it would work - Immediately, I assume, the shard's mind wouldn't be enough to overpower you (well, probably - we know that it can't change your thoughts for a long time). Maybe it's just a tug of war, where the intent of the shard slowly just takes over your own brain, kind of like how it normally happens, but with an entire personality instead of a focused aspect.