Aeshdan he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 So in Oathbringer, the human's worldview was shaken by the revelation that they are not native to Roshar, that they were the original Voidbringers, refugees fleeing a dying world. We know that humanity was given Shinovar to settle in, but that at some point war broke out between the humans and the singers. Everyone assumes that it was humanity that started the war, but what if it was the singers? The passages from the Elia Stele certainly contain a great deal of anti-human racism from the singers, implying that because humans don't feel the Rhythms they feel no emotions, that because they have no gemheart they have no heart. Is it not at least possible that some among the singers might have grown to hate or fear humanity, and launched an assault upon us to try and wipe us from Roshar? Especially if they were falling under the influence of the newly-arrived Odium? This would certainly explain why Honor was on the side of humanity and Odium on the side of the singers during the Desolations. If humanity started the war, you'd expect it would be the other way round, that Honor would stand with the singers and Odium with the humans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Odium was with the humans at the beginning though, and side-switched at some point. My gut tells me that the humans were the aggressors, because that is what makes the story morally complicated. The Listeners certainly aren’t saints, and there has defenitely been mistakes made on both sides though. Honor backing humanity is strange though. I agree there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: Odium was with the humans at the beginning though, and side-switched at some point. My gut tells me that the humans were the aggressors, because that is what makes the story morally complicated. The Listeners certainly aren’t saints, and there has definitely been mistakes made on both sides though. Honor backing humanity is strange though. I agree there. WoB is that Odium sort of followed the Humans and so the Singers sort of assumed he was with them, but that he didnt specifically come with them. It was that " The humans gave him more of an ear". And Honor used 10 humans to build a trap for Odium to hold him in this system, Id argue that does not necessarily qualify as "Honor Backing humanity", especially given that part of the deal was for those Ten to get repeatedly sent back to Odium for infinite torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 38 minutes ago, Quantus said: WoB is that Odium sort of followed the Humans and so the Singers sort of assumed he was with them, but that he didnt specifically come with them. It was that " The humans gave him more of an ear". And Honor used 10 humans to build a trap for Odium to hold him in this system, Id argue that does not necessarily qualify as "Honor Backing humanity", especially given that part of the deal was for those Ten to get repeatedly sent back to Odium for infinite torture. Honor is obviously backing humanity against Odium though. Otherwise he wouldn’t have sent the visions. And if I recall correctly, he was with the Listeners first. At some point, one of them failed the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: Honor is obviously backing humanity against Odium though. Otherwise he wouldn’t have sent the visions. And if I recall correctly, he was with the Listeners first. At some point, one of them failed the other. That's the thing, all we know for sure is that Honor has Used humanity in his own fight against Odium, with the apparent goal of trapping Odium in the Greater Roshar system. Everything we've seen can be explained that specific goal alone, absent any benevolence toward Humanity (or even the Singers, for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) I have theorized this myself. I think Odium used the bitterness of the spren's betrayal of the Listeners to lead the Listeners to attack Humans who had left the area that became Shinovar. Some points of clarification The Stormfather, not necessarily Honor, was with the Listeners. The two were originally entirely distinct. As Quantus said, Odium may not have actually been 'with' humanity to begin with. The betrayal of the Listener gods was the spren beginning to bond humans. This include the Stormfather The Oathpact between the Heralds and Honor was just to block the Fused. It is not what contains Odium. Edited August 30, 2018 by Wreith 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naurock Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 40 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: Honor is obviously backing humanity against Odium though. Otherwise he wouldn’t have sent the visions. And if I recall correctly, he was with the Listeners first. At some point, one of them failed the other. I'd also bet Odium started playing both sides sometime. Probably what caused the humans to go to Honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 19 minutes ago, Wreith said: I have theorized this myself. I think Odium used the bitterness of the spren's betrayal of the Listeners to lead the Listeners to attack Humans who had left the area that became Shinovar. Some points of clarification The Stormfather, not necessarily Honor, was with the Listeners. The two were originally entirely distinct. As Quantus said, Odium may not have actually been 'with' humanity to begin with. The betrayal of the Listener gods was the spren beginning to bond humans. This include the Stormfather The Oathpact between the Heralds and Honor was just to block the Fused. It is not what contains Odium. It is not the only thing, but it is part of it: Quote Eric For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else? Brandon Sanderson Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Naurock said: I'd also bet Odium started playing both sides sometime. Probably what caused the humans to go to Honor. This. I don't think Odium care at all for either side. Descrimination and prejudice are major themes in SA, and like that issue, I think Odium (as Hatred) just needs to keep everyone pointed at each other to win. They have to figure it out and work past their differences to band together against Odium. As long as the conflict is singer vs human, Odium wins. Doesn't matter which side is backed by who. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naurock Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 @Calderis you're gonna give me a big head. That's the second time recently that you've quoted me and agreed with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypatia she/her Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 Don't start laughing, but all of this reminds me of Terry Pratchett's story about the Koom Valley - two races in a fight for ever because what really had happened is forgotten. What boggles me most is that at different point of this forgotten history a group of both races broke their bond with their "gods". After OB we got a glimpse about why the Radiants made their decision and now I hope for the next volume with more emphasy on the Listeners - what did they know that the Last Legion was rather living in powerless forms than further follow Odium and his minions? Both groups are now seen as traitors, both names - knights and legion - are military terms. And the Listeners seem to know more about this part of the story, because against common believe and the lies Odium orders Venli to tell the Parshmen Gavilar was assassinated in an attempt to stop him from bringing back the old "gods". All in all this left me much more interested in the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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