Toaster Retribution Posted August 28, 2018 Report Share Posted August 28, 2018 I started to wonder, how does this work? Since Nale is a Cognitive Shadow with a body, and is connected to the Oathpact, wouldn’t his bond be wierd in some way. For example, what happens if he dies and goes to Braize? Will the spren go with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted August 28, 2018 Report Share Posted August 28, 2018 Hmmmm... Good question. I guess that they don't know, either. After all, he's the first Herald to also join his Order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johhny_Eastland Posted August 28, 2018 Report Share Posted August 28, 2018 Quote Khyrindor You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. linkhyrule5 Huh. ... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? Brandon Sanderson No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. source My theory is that when they became cognitive shadow's they also have copies of their spirit webs. Its just not their original spirit web from when they were alive. Spren are also sapient investiture and we know that they are attracted to people with broken spirit webs. Though it may be different because (assuming I am right) they have copies and not their original spirit webs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Why wouldn't it function like any other Radiant death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 9 hours ago, Nymeros said: Why wouldn't it function like any other Radiant death? Because Nale is a Herald, bound to the Oathpact. Everytime before, when a Herald died, they were sent to Braize to be tortured. It's an interesting question, because the Oathpact is still in force, Odium has just found a hack to get around the Fused-imprisoning portion of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said: Because Nale is a Herald, bound to the Oathpact. Everytime before, when a Herald died, they were sent to Braize to be tortured. It's an interesting question, because the Oathpact is still in force, Odium has just found a hack to get around the Fused-imprisoning portion of it. I think it's possible that the Oathpact is actually broken now... Spoiler that a Herald has died. We don't know the actual terms of the Oathpact, but presumably the Heralds' ability to return after death was part of it. If one has died and been unable to return, then that pact may have now broken on Honor's end rather than the Heralds' end like everyone thought. (not sure the tag is necessary for Oathbringer stuff but whatever) Edited August 30, 2018 by Wreith clarified spoiled content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeshdan Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 48 minutes ago, Wreith said: I think it's possible that the Oathpact is actually broken now... Reveal hidden contents that a Herald has died. We don't know the actual terms of the Oathpact, but presumably the Heralds' ability to return after death was part of it. If one has died and been unable to return, then that pact may have now broken on Honor's end rather than the Heralds' end like everyone thought. (not sure the tag is necessary for Oathbringer stuff but whatever) Spoiler I don't think Jezerien is actually perma-killed as such. I think that the knife imprisoned him in that gemstone at its hilt, just as the Unmade were imprisoned, and that if the gemstone were smashed he would return to Braize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Spoiler meh. I'm on the fence. He and his daughter both react as though he's actually dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johhny_Eastland Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Quote Questioner Are all of the Heralds still alive? Brandon Sanderson The Oathpact has not been broken, so yes. source Quote Questioner With the Heralds we know that there's only one left... one Herald that's still bound to the Oathpact-- Brandon Sanderson OK, only one Herald was about, was abandoned-- You'll find out the mechanics of that in the next book. Questioner So are we going to see more of Taln... Brandon Sanderson You will see more of-- the Oathpact is not completely broken, the others are still bound to the Oathpact. Questioner Even though they kind of sort of said they were abandoning it? Brandon Sanderson Yes, so there's still connection there, so you'll find out more about all of this and how it works. source @Wreith the Oathpact is not broken... yet. Its been stated that is it has been severely weakened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) that WoB was before Oathbringer. my theory is post-Oathbringer edit: That top WoB actually supports my theory, Spoiler since Brandon implies that a Herald dying would indicate the pact was broken. So it comes down to whether or not Jezrien is really "dead" now Edited August 30, 2018 by Wreith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johhny_Eastland Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Wreith said: that WoB was before Oathbringer. my theory is post-Oathbringer The second Wob was just before Oathbringer released in September. So it would still stand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted August 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 You don’t need to spoiler-tag OB-stuff in the Stormlight or Cosmere sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Johhny_Eastland said: The second Wob was just before Oathbringer released in September. So it would still stand umm...no... Brandon's answers on the "current" status of Cosmere peoples is based on our knowledge, not his. newly published works affect any answers we've gotten previously; even up to the release party. Edited August 30, 2018 by Wreith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johhny_Eastland Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 26 minutes ago, Wreith said: umm...no... Brandon's answers on the "current" status of Cosmere peoples is based on our knowledge, not his. newly published works affect any answers we've gotten previously; even up to the release party. Fair enough lol. But in chapter 38 of OB the Stormfather says "The Oathpact has almost been weakened to annihilation." They read it on the Shardcast Oathpact discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Johhny_Eastland said: Fair enough lol. But in chapter 38 of OB the Stormfather says "The Oathpact has almost been weakened to annihilation." They read it on the Shardcast Oathpact discussion. which was before the herald was killed. no comment on the oathpact after that event iirc Edited August 30, 2018 by Wreith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johhny_Eastland Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Wreith said: which was before the herald was killed. no comment on the oathpact after that event iirc True, but as for the topic it doesn't matter that Herald was killed at the end of OB. Nale bonded a spren with the Oathpact still in tact-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Johhny_Eastland said: True, but as for the topic it doesn't matter that Herald was killed at the end of OB. Nale bonded a spren with the Oathpact still in tact-ish. yes, this whole topic is tangential to OP. I'm just saying that at this point, it's possible that Nale won't return to Braize if he's killed, in which case OP's specific example of a complication is moot. As for if the spren would go with Nale if he does still still return, I'm inclined to believe it would. WoB states that getting spren off world is difficult, but the same is said of cognitive shadows which Nale is. I actually think the Heralds may have greater connection to Braize than to Roshar proper and have to be forcibly reconnected to a body in order to return to Roshar. I suspect this connection to extend to a bonded spren. There's a WoB about bonded spren and their radiants in effect becoming a single entity. I'll see if I can find that. Edited August 30, 2018 by Wreith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johhny_Eastland Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, Wreith said: yes, this whole topic is tangential to OP. I'm just saying that at this point, it's possible that Nale won't return to Braize if he's killed, in which case OP's specific example of a complication is moot. As for if the spren would go with Nale if he does still still return, I'm inclined to believe it would. WoB states that getting spren off world is difficult, but the same is said of cognitive shadows which Nale is. I actually think the Heralds may have greater connection to Braize than to Roshar proper and have to be forcibly reconnected to a body in order to return to Roshar. I suspect this connection to extend to a bonded spren. There's a WoB about bonded spren and their radiants in effect becoming a single entity. I'll see if I can find that. I agree and I remember seeing a WoB like that. Plus I believe there is a second WoB out there saying that a regular person summoning their Shardblade would take longer to get to them. Which is essentially taking the spren off-world, not the same but close enough that I would agree it could be done but not easy. Plus we don't know the specific's of the Oathpact. Whatever it is allowed the Heralds being cognitive shadows to travel between worlds. That is definitely not the norm from what we've seen lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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