Can Shards make others Ascend to post-physical beings like themselves?

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

 

1 hour ago, tmnsquirtle said:

Well, since harmony has had trouble acting according to both his intents, he could theoretically make a 'sharchangel' with only ruin, or only preservation, to act for a few hundred years without that restriction. My question would be more along the lines of enforcement: how would you get them to do everything you want, and take back the power if they go against you/when their term is up?

Brute force I guess. Harmony would still be vastly more powerful than any ‘Sharchangel’, and we at least know he doesn’t have any problem controlling his Kandra unless they rip their spikes out. Anyway, presumably he (or any other Shard for that matter) wouldn’t give just anyone that privilege, only those he trusted without reservation.

[tmnsquirtle]

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

 

Brute force I guess. Harmony would still be vastly more powerful than any ‘Sharchangel’, and we at least know he doesn’t have any problem controlling his Kandra unless they rip their spikes out. Anyway, presumably he (or any other Shard for that matter) wouldn’t give just anyone that privilege, only those he trusted without reservation.

Of course. But either you need to find people with enough fervor as Dilaf, those who will follow your will unquestionably, or you'll need to expend your own power to force them to comply, which would kind of defeat the point. 

I'm imagining that you'd 'appoint' such an individual, let them serve for 300-400 years, then force them to retire, because changing over power too often could be dangerous. But on the other hand, giving someone immortality for just a few hundred years and then taking it away might result in an aggressive response. Especially if the next vessel for the sharchangel figures out what goes on, and tries to find a way to subvert your influence/power/whatever in order to not die.

[goody153]

I don't think Harmony's "shardangels" would actually help (considering that he can have multiple consciousness at ones) and honestly it would still clash with his intent. I don't he can make purely preservational or purely ruinous as the act of it itself actually clashes with his intent. Like he is balance not specialized control. 

I think the vessel is the only one who can claim the unclaimed investiture assigned for each shard. 

[tmnsquirtle]

12 hours ago, goody153 said:

I don't think Harmony's "shardangels" would actually help (considering that he can have multiple consciousness at ones) and honestly it would still clash with his intent. I don't he can make purely preservational or purely ruinous as the act of it itself actually clashes with his intent. Like he is balance not specialized control. 

I think the vessel is the only one who can claim the unclaimed investiture assigned for each shard. 

I disagree. While it would probably depend a lot on the vessel in question and how they interpret things, I bet harmony could get around this specific intent issue by creating them in pairs - one ruinous, one preservationist.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I disagree. While it would probably depend a lot on the vessel in question and how they interpret things, I bet harmony could get around this specific intent issue by creating them in pairs - one ruinous, one preservationist.

Honestly, I don’t know about that. We’ve already seen that as separate Shards Ruin and Preservation are about as far from ‘harmonious’ toward each other as it’s possible to get. Indeed, I can easily imagine ‘Harmony’ being way more volatile if held by someone not as wise as Sazed was. That’s why I personally think that if he was going to try something like this, he’d have to give it to people very similar to himself, otherwise the inevitable result probably would be counter to his intent.

[tmnsquirtle]

36 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Honestly, I don’t know about that. We’ve already seen that as separate Shards Ruin and Preservation are about as far from ‘harmonious’ toward each other as it’s possible to get. Indeed, I can easily imagine ‘Harmony’ being way more volatile if held by someone not as wise as Sazed was. That’s why I personally think that if he was going to try something like this, he’d have to give it to people very similar to himself, otherwise the inevitable result probably would be counter to his intent.

Oh, we know for sure that Sazed reigns in the possible destructive power of the shards:

Quote

chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

source

But I may have miscommunicated as far as giving the power. Here's what I'm imagining:

1. Harmony chooses someone who, for whatever reason, is obedient, and unlikely to become less obedient.
2. Harmony bestows upon them power of ruin OR preservation, not both. (I'm 99% sure that there's a WoB that at least suggests that he can do stuff like this, but I couldn't find it, sorry)
3. He does the same thing with the opposite power, so now there is an entity with a tiny fraction of ruin, and one with a tiny fraction of preservation. They execute his will, and generally just do stuff, less limited than he is by his dual-natured intent.
4. After a few hundred years, Harmony forces both these vessels out of their power, and reclaims it, then goes back to step one. This is important so that those vessels don't have their thoughts changed too much by the power they wield.

In theory, this way of doing things would allow for super-powered individuals, almost like odium's unmade, to do stuff on Harmony's behalf while he's protecting the planet, or whatever else it is he does. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

That’s possible I guess. Though I’m pretty sure that a bunch of Preservation-lites would probably be better for Scadrial than an equal number of Preservation-lites and Ruin-lites. Though I suppose creating an imbalance in how much Preservation and Ruin Sazed’s holding could end very badly, especially if there’s more of the latter.

[tmnsquirtle]

5 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

That’s possible I guess. Though I’m pretty sure that a bunch of Preservation-lites would probably be better for Scadrial than an equal number of Preservation-lites and Ruin-lites. Though I suppose creating an imbalance in how much Preservation and Ruin Sazed’s holding could end very badly, especially if there’s more of the latter.

Yeah, that's essentially the point. Though both preservation and ruin can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands; and plus I get the feeling that Sazed, as harmony, wouldn't even want to split himself in a way that wasn't quite even. I always read harmony as the gray jedi 'both good and evil,' toe the line between light and dark kind of thing.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

3 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

Yeah, that's essentially the point. Though both preservation and ruin can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands; and plus I get the feeling that Sazed, as harmony, wouldn't even want to split himself in a way that wasn't quite even. I always read harmony as the gray jedi 'both good and evil,' toe the line between light and dark kind of thing.

Or like Esmer from the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant; for every bit of aid he gives, he also has to offset it with a betrayal, and vice-versa. In Harmony’s case, for every act of preservation, he also needs to ruin something. 

[Calderis he/him]

Harmony speaks of a near paralysis. I don't think that he can simply act towards Preservation and then act towards Ruin on the other end to balance it out. I think he's forced to try and find a near non-existent middle ground. 

I think the weight of the intent acts continually on a Vessel. Acting in accordance with that intent doesn't lessen that weight. Acting closer to one or the other doesn't somehow increase the pressure from the other side. 

It is continual, and it is forcing him to have to act in small ways, as a manipulator, because almost anything overt is immediately prohibited by one or the other of his intents. 

Harmony has a ridiculously difficult existence in my opinion. The most powerful existing being in the Cosmere, and almost no ability to implement that power. He's been metaphorically castrated yet again. 

[tmnsquirtle]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Harmony speaks of a near paralysis. I don't think that he can simply act towards Preservation and then act towards Ruin on the other end to balance it out. I think he's forced to try and find a near non-existent middle ground. 

I think the weight of the intent acts continually on a Vessel. Acting in accordance with that intent doesn't lessen that weight. Acting closer to one or the other doesn't somehow increase the pressure from the other side. 

It is continual, and it is forcing him to have to act in small ways, as a manipulator, because almost anything overt is immediately prohibited by one or the other of his intents. 

Harmony has a ridiculously difficult existence in my opinion. The most powerful existing being in the Cosmere, and almost no ability to implement that power. He's been metaphorically castrated yet again. 

Unfortunately ironic on Sanderson's part.

But surely the act of giving up power isn't restricted by intent like other actions are. I refer, of course, to the impotence that vin felt when she held the power and ruin opposed her, not the 'having thoughts changed' aspect of it all.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Harmony speaks of a near paralysis. I don't think that he can simply act towards Preservation and then act towards Ruin on the other end to balance it out. I think he's forced to try and find a near non-existent middle ground. 

I think the weight of the intent acts continually on a Vessel. Acting in accordance with that intent doesn't lessen that weight. Acting closer to one or the other doesn't somehow increase the pressure from the other side. 

It is continual, and it is forcing him to have to act in small ways, as a manipulator, because almost anything overt is immediately prohibited by one or the other of his intents. 

Harmony has a ridiculously difficult existence in my opinion. The most powerful existing being in the Cosmere, and almost no ability to implement that power. He's been metaphorically castrated yet again. 

Honestly, I never really understood that. The way I think about it is that Sazed’s intent that results from the merging of Ruin and Preservation is ‘Harmony’, which to my mind tends to imply a much less extreme version of Preservation in which there are equal parts preservation and destruction on average’ (incidentally, if we look at it mathematically, the correct outcome would actually just be a less extreme version of Ruin, since that’s what’s in between absolute destruction and absolute stasis. If Cultivation were in the mix too, then I can see ‘Harmony’ rightly being the outcome, but I digress).

‘Harmony’ as an intent should not paralyze him; it might tie his hands when it comes to him having free reign to do what he morally wants to do, but it certainly shouldn’t prevent him from acting at all. Sometimes to promote harmony, you need to put in a lot of effort; that’s just a fact. So I personally think that this is a rather dumb decision on Brandon’s part; I won’t call it a plot-hole, because technically it’s not, but I do think that it’s rather contrived. Either that or ‘Harmony’ is a complete misnomer.

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

‘Harmony’ as an intent should not paralyze him; it might tie his hands when it comes to him having free reign to do what he morally wants to do, but it certainly shouldn’t prevent him from acting at all.

The issue is that Harmony is not his intent. It is a discription of the way he is dealing with his dual intents. 

He is still Preservation and Ruin. 

Quote

I am the least equipped, of all, to aid you in this endeavor. I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult.

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The issue is that Harmony is not his intent. It is a discription of the way he is dealing with his dual intents. 

He is still Preservation and Ruin. 

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t Brandon said that the individual Shards of Ruin and Preservation no longer exist, as they’ve been merged to become the Shard of Harmony, which would be what he would drop if he was killed?

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t Brandon said that the individual Shards of Ruin and Preservation no longer exist, as they’ve been merged to become the Shard of Harmony, which would be what he would drop if he was killed?

He's said both. It could be split back, that they have started to merge and it would take effort to get them apart. That's not the point. 

I've talked about this in other threads in the past, but if there is an actual "intent" to harmony, there should be three, and one would grow as the other two diminish. 

And none of this matters at all because text trumps WoBs in every instance and as I quoted from the letter above, Harmony himself says it's two conflicting powers. 

Quote

I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult.

He makes his situation clear in a single sentence. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Calderis

[Harfyn]

I think it's entirely possible that Harmony is just wrong about his situation though - it might be that before they start merging he is impotent, but once Harmony is it's own shard, he won't be. I think there's a bit of a learning curve to holding and using even just 1 shard - it'll probably take a lot longer with 2

[Ripheus23]

Hmm, how limited was Harmony during the Ascension? Why was it so easy for him to act on the Intent of Preservation then?

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

14 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Hmm, how limited was Harmony during the Ascension? Why was it so easy for him to act on the Intent of Preservation then?

Actually, I think arguably if anything he utilized the intent of Ruin more than he did of Preservation, since he basically had to completely remake the entire planet, which clearly would have involved destroying a great many things. 

[tmnsquirtle]

On 9/2/2018 at 4:46 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Actually, I think arguably if anything he utilized the intent of Ruin more than he did of Preservation, since he basically had to completely remake the entire planet, which clearly would have involved destroying a great many things. 

Change is neither of preservation nor ruin. He used them together, like they were used in the initial creation of the world.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

 

1 hour ago, tmnsquirtle said:

Change is neither of preservation nor ruin. He used them together, like they were used in the initial creation of the world.

Technically, change would be of both Ruin and Cultivation, but Preservation opposes all change. Vin was able to change things only because she either interpreted the intent differently or else because she hadn’t held the power long enough for it to affect her.

Incidentally, that’s one thing I can’t for the life of me understand. If neither Ruin or Preservation are capable of creating anything, then how exactly do they somehow magically gain the ability by working together? Honestly, I’ve always thought that that’s a plot hole, because it’s explicitly said that neither of them possess that ability in Hero of Ages.

[tmnsquirtle]

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

 

Technically, change would be of both Ruin and Cultivation, but Preservation opposes all change. Vin was able to change things only because she either interpreted the intent differently or else because she hadn’t held the power long enough for it to affect her.

Incidentally, that’s one thing I can’t for the life of me understand. If neither Ruin or Preservation are capable of creating anything, then how exactly do they somehow magically gain the ability by working together? Honestly, I’ve always thought that that’s a plot hole, because it’s explicitly said that neither of them possess that ability in Hero of Ages.

My bad - change isn't quite what they would add up to, I don't think, as much as they add up to creation.

Preservation, I think, isn't about maintaining everything as it is perfectly for all time. Otherwise he would have been opposed to creating a new planet. So there is some more complexity to the shard than just 'avoid change.'

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

3 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

My bad - change isn't quite what they would add up to, I don't think, as much as they add up to creation.

Preservation, I think, isn't about maintaining everything as it is perfectly for all time. Otherwise he would have been opposed to creating a new planet. So there is some more complexity to the shard than just 'avoid change.'

Don’t forget though that that was shortly after they acquired their Shards, so the intents likely hadn’t become all-consuming in them yet. At that point, Preservation probably would have essentially been like Vin, and even Ruin clearly wasn’t nearly as destructive back then either. It still doesn’t explain how they somehow managed to acquire a completely new ability neither of them possessed though, and Brandon never explains it in the books.

[Kaj he/him]

Here and I thought that Harmony was the intent that came out of the combination of the two shards. Now I am of the opinion that it is and that Sazed's inexperience with the use and being of a shard is what is causing the conflict. As he learns his ability to act should work. As he gets better at predicting what actions would do, he will be able to make more actions. On the sharchangel thing, the way I figure it is like alloying metals. Different combinations of preservation and ruin to make mini intents. Sort of like the avatars of Autonomy, but with the advantage of variety. Like if you mixed 10% ruin with 90% percent Preservation you could get Stability. Stability being enough change to maintain it. The process of the mixing of the shards could do it too. You could have sixteen helpers with their own intents. Preservation, Stability, Growth, Creation, Change, Decay, and Ruin. All little servants to Harmony.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Kaj

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, Kaj said:

Here and I thought that Harmony was the intent that came out of the combination of the two shards. Now I am of the opinion that it is and that Sazed's inexperience with the use and being of a shard is what is causing the conflict. As he learns his ability to act should work. As he gets better at predicting what actions would do, he will be able to make more actions. On the sharchangel thing, the way I figure it is like alloying metals. Different combinations of preservation and ruin to make mini intents. Sort of like the avatars of Autonomy, but with the advantage of variety. Like if you mixed 10% ruin with 90% percent Preservation you could get Stability. Stability being enough change to maintain it. The process of the mixing of the shards could do it too. You could have sixteen helpers with their own intents. Preservation, Stability, Growth, Creation, Change, Decay, and Ruin. All little servants to Harmony.

Well, technically Growth would not currently be something Harmony could create, because ultimately he is incomplete; he only has two out of three Shards of the change trinity, Ruin and Preservation, and the sad thing is that I think out of the three of them, Cultivation probably fits his personality the most, and it’s the one he lacks. Sazed always wanted to change things for the better, always was striving to build people up and refine their thinking into something better. That may be part of the reason he has trouble as Harmony, because while he may have been wise enough to see how Ruin and Preservation were two parts of a larger whole, there’s still a fundamental disconnect between his core personality and the two Shards he holds. My personal opinion is that if you were to be holding Cultivation as well, which I actually hope happens sometime, he would be a lot less cognitively unstable. Both because he would then be complete, and also better able to follow his desired goals.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Journey Before Pancakes]

Is anyone else concerned that Harmony will still become/is becoming Discord?

Hes having a hard time actually using the powers in harmony.  The biggest thing to me though is that the Terris prophecies say something like “he shall be called Discord”; and the Terris prophecies were pretty specific and correct (unless Ruin changed that part).