Bondsmiths and Shards

[The Grumpy Elantrian he/him]

We saw when Dalinar bonded the Stormfather that he would not have a shard blade. I wonder whether this is the case for all Bondsmiths, and whether it applies to shardplate as well. Presumably a bondsmith could still wear shardplate without any issues.

Also, I always got the impression that the Stormfather refused to be his blade out of pride, is there anything actually stopping the Stormfather from becoming his shardblade? Presumably, if Dalinar could be persuasive enough then the Stormfather may be convinced to become his blade. 

Feel free to correct me wherever I may be wrong. I welcome your input. 

[Scion of the Mists]

Brandon has said that Dalinar won't get plate; not sure about the blade.  

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

In that one long rejection of Odium, how many Oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the Realms? And is "I am Unity" the fifth.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, that is not an Oath. He swore one ideal in that experience.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay. How many Oaths is he on?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The number you think. So, he should have just finished three, right? Or maybe four. I'll have to go look. It's the number that you think it is. I'm not being sneaky on you. There's nothing sneaky there. He doesn't get armor, so I can't remember where he is... He should be at three. "Life before death." "I will unite instead of divide." "I will stand up each time I fall." Yeah, so he's done three.

source

[Calderis he/him]

No Bondsmiths had blades.

Quote

Questioner

And there's one last question if I may: I'm really into swords and such. I couldn't help but notice king Elhokar's Blade. It's just... All the others are ornamented, and they may have some glyphs, but it is the only one where it is explicitly it is told that there are ten fundamental glyphs on it which are the glyphs of the orders. I read some of the chapters from Dalinar from Unfettered II, and I know how he got it for Elhokar. Is there also some more backstory to this Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a backstory to every Blade and every one of them is special, that's the problem. But I will be exploring the origins of some of the Blades. Eventually. Not a ton, but a little bit.

Questioner

As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmiths didn't have Blades.

Questioner

All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather...

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. 

Questioner

But maybe there is at least something to it.

Brandon Sanderson

But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 orders.

source

 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Honestly, I think it was just a matter of pride on the Stormfather’s part; he kind of views himself as being above humankind, so the thought of submitting himself to Dalinar like that is distasteful. Which isn’t all that surprising considering that he’s a Sliver of Honour. That being said, I suspect that at some point in the series he will let Dalinar summon him as a Shardblade, just under extraordinary circumstances.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Juanaton he/him]

On 8/17/2018 at 6:13 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Honestly, I think it was just a matter of pride on the Stormfather’s part; he kind of views himself as being above humankind, so the thought of submitting himself to Dalinar like that is distasteful. Which isn’t all that surprising considering that he’s a Sliver of Honour. That being said, I suspect that at some point in the series he will let Dalinar summon him as a Shardblade, just under extraordinary circumstances.

I don't think the Stormfather will ever serve as a Shardblade. He indicates that being bound in such a way to become a blade would make it possible for Dalinar to kill him and he isn't going to let that happen.

Aside from their use as a weapon, we've seen that living Shardblades are the keys that allow operation of the Oathgates...which Dalinar did without forming a blade, although that disturbed the Stormfather too.

I find it interesting that Brandon says Dalinar doesn't get armor. That kind of hurts the theory that the geometric shapes (around Dalinar in the vision with Venli and Jasnah at Thaylen Field) are proto-Shardplate since we wouldn't expect Dalinar to get them if they are proto-Plate and he doesn't get plate...

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Well, like I said, my suspicion is that if the Stormfather ever does become a Shardblade, it would only be under the most extraordinary circumstances, like where if Dalinar doesn’t win the Stormfather will die either way.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I think Brandon misspoke on the WOB that said Bondsmiths don't get Plate. I think he meant blades. Refer to the conversation in OB between Dalinar and SF when he asks about Shardplate. SF tells Dalinar he hasn't spoken enough Oaths, not that he will not attain Plate. Whereas SF specifically tells Dalinar on more than 1 occasion that he will not have a Blade.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Well it is clearly at least theoretically possible for a Bondsmith to get a blade, since Dalinar essentially forced the Stormfather to assume a quasi-Shardblade-form in order to activate the oathgate in Thaylen City. So it’s clearly just the case that the Stormfather doesn’t want to become a Shardblade, not that he can’t. He has an ego the size of a Highstorm after all.

[Angsos]

Considering it hurt the stormfather, I doubt it's just pride

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Well it hurt him because Dalinar forced him to do it against his will. I suspect if Kaladin had done something like that with Syl the effect on her would have been much the same.

[MountainKing]

Bondsmiths can have both plate and blade but their Soren refuse to give it to them. The Stormfather can not be a blade, because he is the reason why the highstorms provide stormlight. If he was in blade form the highstorms won't provide stormlight and the ecosystem can collapse.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

2 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Bondsmiths can have both plate and blade but their Soren refuse to give it to them. The Stormfather can not be a blade, because he is the reason why the highstorms provide stormlight. If he was in blade form the highstorms won't provide stormlight and the ecosystem can collapse.

I very much doubt that this is the case. First of all, the Stormfather doesn’t literally cause the Highstorms (he can, but usually they’re just a natural part of Roshar), he’s “just” their Spren. Second, even if what you just said were true, I hardly think that a few minutes less Highstorm every now and then would have any non-negligible effect on the ecosystem. Plus, considering the sheer amount of power he has, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was able to do both at the same time.

[Calderis he/him]

15 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I very much doubt that this is the case. First of all, the Stormfather doesn’t literally cause the Highstorms (he can, but usually they’re just a natural part of Roshar), he’s “just” their Spren. Second, even if what you just said were true, I hardly think that a few minutes less Highstorm every now and then would have any non-negligible effect on the ecosystem. Plus, considering the sheer amount of power he has, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was able to do both at the same time.

The Stormfather is an integral part of the storm and the literal source of stormlight. 

Quote

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

source

And regardless of whether it's a choice or an actual impossibility, Bondsmiths have never had blades. 

Quote

Questioner

And there's one last question if I may: I'm really into swords and such. I couldn't help but notice king Elhokar's Blade. It's just... All the others are ornamented, and they may have some glyphs, but it is the only one where it is explicitly it is told that there are ten fundamental glyphs on it which are the glyphs of the orders. I read some of the chapters from Dalinar from Unfettered II, and I know how he got it for Elhokar. Is there also some more backstory to this Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a backstory to every Blade and every one of them is special, that's the problem. But I will be exploring the origins of some of the Blades. Eventually. Not a ton, but a little bit.

Questioner

As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmiths didn't have Blades.

Questioner

All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather...

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. 

Questioner

But maybe there is at least something to it.

Brandon Sanderson

But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 orders.

source

 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

46 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Stormfather is an integral part of the storm and the literal source of stormlight. 

And regardless of whether it's a choice or an actual impossibility, Bondsmiths have never had blades. 

 

So how does Honor’s Perpendicularity fit into it then? Surely Brandon isn’t implying that the Stormfather in some sense is the Perpendicularity, is he? Because I was under the impression that it was part of the Highstorms, and had assumed that that was what infused the gems.

[Calderis he/him]

46 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

So how does Honor’s Perpendicularity fit into it then? Surely Brandon isn’t implying that the Stormfather in some sense is the Perpendicularity, is he? Because I was under the impression that it was part of the Highstorms, and had assumed that that was what infused the gems.

I honestly don't know. I mean, there is definitely a thinning in the moment of transformation where all goes still and the spheres infuse, but I don't think that the Highstorm is Honor's perpendicularity. 

There was no storm in Thaylen city, and this WoB implies that that is what Jasnah used to return, and there was no storm in the Unclaimed Hills when she returned. 

Quote

Questioner

Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And can we know how?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?

Questioner

Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in--

Questioner

Yeah, yeah I know these.

Brandon Sanderson

You know which one I'm referencing?

Questioner

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

That you didn't see a Pool from?

Questioner

Oh wait--

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

Argent

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves.

Questioner

Woah...so...Highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

*makes non-committal noises*

Questioner 2

Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner 2

So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.

source

 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

I have to believe that there’s at least some sort of connection there. I mean, Stormfather infuses gems, Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, Dalinar is now able to open a Perpendicularity that also infuses gems. That’s quite the coincidence. And it also makes sense given that the Stormfather absorbed a significant bit of Honor’s Investiture, so it might  make sense that he might serve as a kind of ‘nucleation site’, so to speak, for Honor’s Investiture to congregate, which is how Perpendicularities form. That may even be why the Highstorms are so violent, because they’re indirectly fueled by a god’s power.

[Jace21 he/him]

On 8/16/2018 at 8:17 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

Brandon has said that Dalinar won't get plate; not sure about the blade.  

I see your interpretation of that but when I first saw that WOB I read it differently.

I first read it as saying that Dalinar didn't get plate when he swore the ideal in Oathbringer, so Brandon couldnt use that to figure out what ideal he was on.

The ambiguity combined with Dalinars inherant skill with Plate and the fact that neither of the 2 main plate theories (lesser spren or solid stormlight) should prevent a Bondsmith having plate makes me think that Dalinar WILL get Plate, but no Blade.

That said there is a lot of evidence that he won't so that wouldn't surprise me either.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I could see the the idea of the Stormfather becoming a Blade happening in some extreme circumstance, which ends with both him and Dalinar kicking the bucket. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

O

43 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I could see the the idea of the Stormfather becoming a Blade happening in some extreme circumstance, which ends with both him and Dalinar kicking the bucket. 

Or, more likely, ending in both of them Ascending to become Unity.

[tmnsquirtle]

5 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

O

Or, more likely, ending in both of them Ascending to become Unity.

I wonder if the stormfather would remain sapient if this happened. Since he is essentially just sentient investiture, it's entirely possible his consciousness could get broken down and absorbed by the newly reformed shard.

Although it's equally likely that he'll stick around as a grumpy shoulder angel if Dalinar does end up ascending, since the Nahel bond essentially just makes their souls into a single soul with two minds.

 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

27 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I wonder if the stormfather would remain sapient if this happened. Since he is essentially just sentient investiture, it's entirely possible his consciousness could get broken down and absorbed by the newly reformed shard.

Although it's equally likely that he'll stick around as a grumpy shoulder angel if Dalinar does end up ascending, since the Nahel bond essentially just makes their souls into a single soul with two minds.

 

That’s a good question. I don’t think he necessarily would, since Honorspren existed AS Spren even while Honor was still alive despite technically still being “part of” Honor. Then again, the Stormfather absorbed enough of Honor’s power to qualify as a sliver, so maybe he’d have to sacrifice himself so that the new Honor/Unity would have enough power to fight Odium?

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I wonder if the stormfather would remain sapient if this happened. Since he is essentially just sentient investiture, it's entirely possible his consciousness could get broken down and absorbed by the newly reformed shard.

Although it's equally likely that he'll stick around as a grumpy shoulder angel if Dalinar does end up ascending, since the Nahel bond essentially just makes their souls into a single soul with two minds.

Not sure whether or not the Stormfather would remain separate, but it's definitely possible for a splinter to be absorbed into the larger whole.  

 

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

That’s a good question. I don’t think he necessarily would, since Honorspren existed AS Spren even while Honor was still alive despite technically still being “part of” Honor. Then again, the Stormfather absorbed enough of Honor’s power to qualify as a sliver, so maybe he’d have to sacrifice himself so that the new Honor/Unity would have enough power to fight Odium?

The Stormfather is not a Sliver, he is a splinter of Honor that merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow.  A Sliver is a "human intelligence who has held the power and released it"; a splinter is a portion of a Shard's power.  

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

I thought a sliver was someone who has/had absorbed a portion of a Shard’s power... I mean Brandon has referred to him as a ‘sliver’ in the beginning of Oathbringer.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Calderis he/him]

41 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I thought a sliver was someone who has/had absorbed a portion of a Shard’s power... I mean Brandon has referred to him as a ‘sliver’ in the beginning of Oathbringer.

The Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, and he is technically correct in that he contains a Sliver in the form of Tanavast's shadow... 

That said... 

Quote

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

source

It's paraphrased, and it calls the WoB into question, because his nature as a spren means he is inherently a Splinter, and was so before absorbing the shadow of Tanavast. 

Depending on which piece of him your talking about, both would apply, but I think that Sliver is mostly incorrect. The human mind of Tanavast seems to be mostly gone. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Honestly, stipulating that only a human can be a Sliver seems completely arbitrary to me. Sapient Spren are ‘people’ by any meaningful definition too after all, so why couldn’t a Spren be a sliver? It’s always been a distinction that doesn’t make much sense to me.