The Unmade are Odiums Heralds - which he unmade

[kalamitous_emoashions he/him]

So - been reading through stuff about the Unmade while I wait for mates in a pub, and something just struck me. 

We know that Honor created the Heralds and poured part of his power into them. 

Based off what we know about how Odium and Honor can enter into pacts regarding the use of champions, what if something similar happened originally. Honor created the Heralds and Odium reacted against this by creating his own set of Heralds. Something changed his mind, or he wasn't happy about putting his power into them and he went back on this, in effect, be Unmade his Heralds. 

However, as we know, emotions, forces, perception of reality create Spren. What if after being unmade the memory of these Heralds produced them in their current form. Hence them being an abberation and something weird. They weren't originally Spren, but became Spren.

Now - please rip this theory to shreds. I haven't had time to look through the WOB to disapprove myself. Is this a conceivable theory? 

[Quantus he/him]

See below for a worthwhile WOB on this topic.  It doesnt kill it, but the part that says it's not a one-to-one is worth noting.  I used to thing each Unmade would reflect a radiant order and were simply missing one (my guess was Bondsmith) but that doesnt seem to hold the more we find out about them.

 

 

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Questioner

Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

Footnote: In the epigraph for WoR 81 the Diagram says "The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however."
source

 

 

[kalamitous_emoashions he/him]

Exactly - it's not one to one as they were Heralds, and now they are the Spren created from humans and maybe singers memories/emotions/perceptions of them. If anything I think that WOB backs up the theory by showing that there is an almost one to one relationship between Heralds and unmade.

[Ripheus23]

They were the nine shadows of Odium's champion-image, too, weren't they? Maybe they're nine spren that are drawn towards the concept of this champion (championspren, even), and so towards the person meant to have this role, or the process of bringing him into existence.

EDIT: Or, the spren of the number 9, in a system where 9 maps to "evil"?

Edited August 15, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist he/him]

I think the Fused are really Odium's closest analog to the Heralds, but this is an interesting theory too.

[Ripheus23]

Maybe they're the spren of the magic systems themselves 

Or nine spren incapable of the Nahel bond, made so by Odium (Rayse "castrated" them, so to speak...).

Edited August 15, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Or nine spren incapable of the Nahel bond

About that... 

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Questioner

Can the Unmade be bonded?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, plausible... Yes, or possible, I should say.

source

I think they'd be Bondsmith spren, and are why going above 3 Bondsmiths was considered "seditious" 

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist he/him]

11 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Or nine spren incapable of the Nahel bond, made so by Odium (Rayse "castrated" them, so to speak...).

Well we know Yelig-nar, at least, can create a pseudo-Nahel "bond" with those who swallow a gemstone. And I think you could argue that the Three Mindless Unmade make some sort of "bond" with people who receive Death Rattles/The Thrill/100% Degeneracy. I think the difference might be that Odiumspren create parasitic and harmful bonds, where as the Nahel bond is symbiotic. This would go very well with Odium's Intent, as well as the Fused's MO of totally destroying their host's mind. Odium's Invested lackeys seem to share an MO of destroying the Cognitive.

(hmm, note to self: what if an Odiumblade kills a thing in the Cognitive Realm the way an Honorblade kills it in the Spiritual? Is that why Moash's knife was so weird?...)

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

(hmm, note to self: what if an Odiumblade kills a thing in the Cognitive Realm the way an Honorblade kills it in the Spiritual? Is that why Moash's knife was so weird?...)

All Shardblades cut on all three realms. Nightblood just obliterates where others cut. 

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VindicationKnight

If a person in the Cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that Spren do.

VindicationKnight

How does a Shardblade interact with a Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

source

 

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist he/him]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

All Shardblades cut on all three realms. Nightblood just obliterates where others cut. 

*grumbles quietly, crossing out theory on giant whiteboard*

[Ripheus23]

Is bonding with the Unmade the same as Nahel-bonding? (Who/what was "Nahel," anyway?)

Or maybe: the Unmade can't individually fully bond with someone, which is why they were supposed to be the champion's shadows. Dalinar was going to be a Voidknight(!), so to speak, with nine spren (and nine weapons?! like a Nine-Tails )?

[insert_anagram_here]

On 8/17/2018 at 0:16 AM, Ripheus23 said:

(Who/what was "Nahel," anyway?)

I love this question. It's one of those things we take for granted but never ask why.

[Calderis he/him]

On 8/16/2018 at 2:16 PM, Ripheus23 said:

(Who/what was "Nahel," anyway?)

Most likely wasn't a person, but a combination of syllables that mean something, just like how names are structured. 

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Kythis

The name 'Zahel' and 'nahel bonds' are both very similar so is it just coincidental or is it part of . . . ?

Brandon Sanderson

It is part of the linguistics.  They are based off of similar suffixes.  They're actually the same suffix I believe.  

source

 

[Cojiro]

I always got more of a Nazgul vibe from the Unmade, like they had been alive millennia ago, but had been consumed by darkness and turned into something more resembling dark spren. The text of OB seems to back this up, at least a little bit, but feel free to bring up any WOB that disprove this, as I've just barely found this site, and haven't read any of them yet.

I somewhat got a feeling that they are what Dalinar would become after years in Odium's service. I've been conflicted about this, since the excerpts from Hessi's Mythica claim that the 9th Unmade may be unknown, suggesting there was a spot open for Dalinar to fill, but then the vision always showed Odium's champion with 9 shadows, suggesting that the champion is something different from the Unmade. Unless the 9th shadow is their own?

[I Am Stick]

I think that the unmade were human constructs originally. They were thoughts and concepts much how normal spren are. The main examples being yelig-Nar representing power and the quest for power being all consuming and, ashertman being how lust and debauchery is perceived as an external force taking over and moelach essentially being the aspect of death, the grim reaper taking your soul to the beyond. You could also apply this to the thrill, being an all consuming battle rage that gives people the will to carry on where they would normally fall but also do things in war that are so shocking they attribute it to something else, the “red mist” so to speak.

I personally think that humans “made” the unmade by conceiously attributing these ideas to external forces. (Much like us when we talk about Mother Nature and such like) Odium then took these powerful spren and corrupted them “unmaking” them in the process. They would be more powerful than normal spren, I think, as they are perceived as large forces prior to their unmaking due to them being thought of as these large forces of nature driving people to act. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by I Am Stick