Liberal Alethi?

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

So Sigzil and Kaladin have a discussion about Drehys sexuality.
To me the roles felt oddly reversed.

 

I woul expect the azish to allow various froms of marriage as long as the proper forms have been submitted.

 

The Alethi on the other hand... Their entire culture depends alot on gender specific roles.

Homosexual couples would have it hard in vorin culture. I mean to guys would be  illiterate and two women couldn't trade or defend themselves.

Maybe it isn't that different for darkeyes but the lighteyes need marriage to fullfill their roles.

 

I just think it would have made more sense if Kaladin had been the uncomfortable one with Sigzil not understanding what the fuzz is about.

I just wanted to know if anybody else thought that was weird

 

[Morsk he/him]

I was surprised Vorin didn't make a fuss out of it, since they're so obsessively conformist about other things. Not only the gender roles, but the prudishness, social stratification, and war culture... all of it makes me think they'd hate anything "different" because different.

Maybe Brandon already had the Christian analog religion in Mistborn Era 2 be against gay marriage, and he didn't want to do the same thing twice. Or maybe it's deliberately paradoxical and defying our expectations?

Edited August 14, 2018 by Morsk
i guess the name of the religion is a spoiler to people who haven't read Mistborn

[IllNsickly he/him]

I voted deliberate. I actually chuckled at the exchange between them.

 

[Ripheus23]

Sanderson had some kind of change of heart on this topic IRL, IIRC. I believe he is using Kaladin's role as a moral exemplar, to make a special indirect statement to further such effect. I mean Kaladin is basically Action-Hero Jesus, is he not? (I honestly would say that the discussion about Drehy being "more manly" for liking guys, resonated quite strongly with me, as the most accurate assessment/application of this question/concept, because really, that is how I feel, after all, I guess I would say.)

EDIT: So it's not about the Alethi being tolerant/accepting/w/e, but Kaladin specifically being so. We're shown an(other) example of how he cares about his troops, that is. [That Alethi culture is liberal/deviantish/w/e, I think can be proven by (a) pointing to a parallel case, Jasnah's atheism, and (b) the opposition between the Sunmaker and the Hierocracy.]

Edited August 14, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

11 minutes ago, Morsk said:

I was surprised Vorin didn't make a fuss out of it, since they're so obsessively conformist about other things. Not only the gender roles, but the prudishness, social stratification, and war culture... all of it makes me think they'd hate anything "different" because different.

Maybe Brandon already had the Christian analog religion in Mistborn Era 2 be against gay marriage, and he didn't want to do the same thing twice. Or maybe it's deliberately paradoxical and defying our expectations?

What?

wich Religion is openly anti gay in Mistborn BoM spoilers ahead

Spoiler

Nobody except wayne seems to be bothered by ranettes lifestyle.

Do surviverists care?

Or does the path forbid it?

I never thought gay marriage had even been mentioned.

 

 

[Calderis he/him]

You have to take a couple of things into account here. 

First the gender roles have become so intertwined with Vorinism that they are pretty inseparable... But these aren't actually religious rule. They're set roles on specific actions outlined in the book Arts and Majesty. They don't cover every aspect of life, only specific tasks. And as far as the broader sense of it goes, it only comes down to, "does this activity require one hand, or two?" 

There are a couple of exceptions to that, notably literacy, but that was a purely power based political move. 

Spoilered for length.

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Safehands: Where did, that-- like why? Is there like a cultural *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a culture-- Now the actual answer to that is because different cultures have really different mores, and if you go around our world you will find places where, for instance, showing the bottom of your foot-- where the bottom of your foot is offensive, or where showing certain parts of your anatomy is not offensive that it is here. And that is very common, it's part of what it means to be human.

Now if you want to trace back in Rosharan time, there is actually a moment that you can point at and say "this is where it started" and it started right after the Recreance where all these Shardblades and Shardplate were suddenly out there everywhere, and certain people in power wanted to make sure that half the population didn't have access to them, and so they started emphasizing a certain philosophy book that had been written by a woman that said "feminine arts were one-handed, masculine arts were two-handed".

And because of this it became culturally ingrained, which then-- basically it was a misogynistic ploy to keep the women from having the Shardblades, and then in that a certain movement of the women seized writing, and that's when men stopped writing. It's kind of a reciprocation on it. But that's kind of where it went, but it's become much bigger than that, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

What do you do if you safehand is your dominant hand?

Brandon Sanderson

If you are darkeyed it's not a problem, you just wear a glove. If you are lighteyed then you learn to write with your non-dominant hand, which is a problem.

Footnote: The book here is likely Arts and Majesty, referenced in WoR 25
source

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Why can only women read in [The] Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Immediately after the Recreance an old book was used to argue for the idea that only men should be picking up the blades and plate, fighting was a masculine art. Over a period of 20 or so years this became established and some women used the same argument to take back some power by taking literacy for themselves as a feminine art.

source

 

Secondly, Sigzil's culture is not "accepting." it has a horrible form of enforced gender roles that make you basically live as the opposite sex if you are homosexual, whether you want to or not. 

This WoB covers that, and is relevant to this thread in general. 

Quote

TimAnEnchanter

How is homosexuality regarded across the cosmere?

I know one member of Bridge 4, though I forget who, is gay, but I'm asking more in the sense of legality, societal view, etc.

Barleyjuicer

It would probably depend on the planet and culture involved. Roshar has many varied cultures and probably has multiple different acceptance levels. Scadrial is much more progressive and really only has two cultures so it's more likely that most if not all of the world accepts it. Maybe this is something you could ask [Brandon] at a signing or during an AMA.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this varies widely based on the planet, and even culture, TimAnEnchanter.

Roshar, for instance, has a lot of different perspectives on homosexuality. In Iri, the more religious segment (who believe that life is about new experiences) would approve, while the more rigid modern, secular society has outlawed it.

In Azir, you'd find something like existed in middle-ages India. (Some societies there had this curious system where a gay man would be given "social reassignment" so that he was treated like a woman, dressed like one, and had relations with men--even if he wasn't actually transsexual.)

Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

There are actually a couple of scenes in Book Three talking about it, for those who are interested, as the family and romantic relationships of the bridgemen are becoming a larger part of the story. (Still a small part, I should note, for space limitations.)

On Scadrial, it's going to fall between Pathian lines (each individual decides for themselves) and Survivorist lines (you follow church hierarchy, which forbids it.)

Don't even get me started on Bavadin's religions.

fbstj

What reasons do Survivorists use to rationalize heterosexuality? Thank you so much for these tidbits it's really interesting to hear more about this stuff from you. It would be great to see some of this canonized, maybe in an interlude, or random background discussion somewhere. Thank you again for your books! Also very interested in hearing why secular Iriali have decided to 'regress' on that.

Brandon Sanderson

Survivorism calls it unnatural, and not conducive to the survival of the species. More than that, though, Survivorism has become very conservative and slow to change. What early thinkers had to say is regarded very strictly in the religion. Back during the early days of the new era, repopulating the basin was of prime concern, and this became a big part of what led to moral codes in Survivorism.

source

 

[Morsk he/him]

7 minutes ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

wich Religion is openly anti gay in Mistborn BoM spoilers ahead

Spoiler because I think the names of which religions exist in Era 2 is is a spoiler for Era 1

Spoiler

It's Survivorism, but I'm not sure i'm going to be able to find the WoB. It might have been reddit. I'll edit it here if I can find it. Brandon's reasoning was something about them being socially conservative and attached to old texts.

edit: Nm Calderis found it already!

Edited August 14, 2018 by Morsk

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

 I know that the Azish are not accepting in the canon. And that confused me...

Let's hope they learn from the Alethi in that regard.

Spoiler

So in Era 2 we get nobles (who kelsier wanted to wipe out in a genocide) that preach how homosexuality is wrong because Kelsier (who never even cared about anything like that) said so?

Well its so frustrating it could almost be real...

 

[Angsos]

Besides Kaladin had to be accepting because he got metaphorically hit over the head when he just assumed that scout, whose name I'm forgetting, was there to be a scribe, not a Radiant. Also the Vorin church might not like homosexuality but when got too political, they were slapped down hard.

[wotbibliophile]

On 8/14/2018 at 0:57 PM, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

So Sigzil and Kaladin have a discussion about Drehys sexuality.
To me the roles felt oddly reversed.

 

I would expect the azish to allow various froms of marriage as long as the proper forms have been submitted.

I can agree with this. Despite the explanation Sanderson gives, the Alethi seem way too conservative to be so accepting of homosexuality.

 

On 8/14/2018 at 1:34 PM, Ripheus23 said:

(I honestly would say that the discussion about Drehy being "more manly" for liking guys, resonated quite strongly with me, as the most accurate assessment/application of this question/concept, because really, that is how I feel, after all, I guess I would say.)

I actually didn't like this discussion because I would have preferred more nuance. A variety of reactions to Drehy and different levels of tolerance. Instead everyone in bridge 4 seemed to have a hive mind and react the exact same way. I feel like if there had been more nuance it would have been more realistic. Kaladin for instance seemed to view Drehy slightly differently than the rest of bridge 4. I assume everyone in bridge 4 has very different life experiences and that would inform their reaction to homosexuality.

[RShara she/her]

18 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I can agree with this. Despite the explanation Sanderson gives, the Alethi seem way too conservative to be so accepting of homosexuality.

 

I actually didn't like this discussion because I would have preferred more nuance. A variety of reactions to Drehy and different levels of tolerance. Instead everyone in bridge 4 seemed to have a hive mind and react the exact same way. I feel like if there had been more nuance it would have been more realistic. Kaladin for instance seemed to view Drehy slightly differently than the rest of bridge 4. I assume everyone in bridge 4 has very different life experiences and that would inform their reaction to homosexuality.

I don't think so. The Alethi are very Vorin, yes, but Vorinism has nothing for or against homosexuality. You're trying to apply "our" notion of conservative to a different culture. Vorinism isn't concerned with whether the people in a relationship are male or female, only that they make oaths and abide by them. Their particular notion of male and female attire and roles also doesn't have commentary on intimate relations, only on public behavior and appropriate abilities.

[Angsos]

I wonder whose going to learn to read in that pair.

[MountainKing]

Truthfully a Lesbian couple would have the best benefits, they don't have to fight in wars, but they can't own shardblade or plate. That's about it, most jobs that men do are manual labor which they are culturally s forbidden from doing, instead they can become merchants, doctors, or scribes.

[wotbibliophile]

4 hours ago, RShara said:

I don't think so. The Alethi are very Vorin, yes, but Vorinism has nothing for or against homosexuality. You're trying to apply "our" notion of conservative to a different culture. Vorinism isn't concerned with whether the people in a relationship are male or female, only that they make oaths and abide by them. Their particular notion of male and female attire and roles also doesn't have commentary on intimate relations, only on public behavior and appropriate abilities.

That is fair. It is hard for me to wrap my head around. It doesn't help that the Alethi have such strict separation between men and women.

[RShara she/her]

I know, it's weird. But a radically different culture and all.

[Juanaton he/him]

On 8/16/2018 at 4:16 PM, wotbibliophile said:

It doesn't help that the Alethi have such strict separation between men and women.

Except of course in their actual clergy. The Ardent's all do whichever things they feel like doing. The ONLY accommodation the female Ardent's make is to wear a glove on their safehand. There are female fighting Ardents, male scholar Ardents, etc. Absolutely no gender roles in the religion if you are in the clergy.