Ati Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Ok, let me start by saying that if I'd noticed this with any other author I never would have thought twice about it. Since it's Brandon, this has me wondering a little, especially since we're going to see the events of this night from three more view points (I think). /TL:DR My basic question here, odd as it seems, is what was Gavilar doing in his chambers wearing his plate? We lose sight of Gavilar during Jasnah's prelude scene in WoR. When last we see him, he is with his guard, Tearim, who is wearing the king's Plate. Jasnah also note's that he is returning to the party when he leaves her. /End TL:DR Based on the description of Jasnah's activities between leaving him near the party and seeing him dead near his chambers, relatively little time could have passed by. Several minutes in Shadesmar, several minutes with Liss, and the time she spent walking off her encounter in Shadesmar. It seems to me we're probably talking about a span of time somewhere around 15-20 min give or take. If that is correct, I figure Gavilar would have needed to return to his chambers almost immediately following his conversation with Jasnah (according to Szeth in WoK, he had retired from the party hours before, so presumably he does not return following the conversation with Jasnah). Then get Tearim out of his armor, get himself into it, and engage in a relatively long fight with Szeth in order to get dropped and impaled in time for Jasnah's arrival on scene. So, trivial as it seems, why did Gavilar (who, as noted by Jasnah in this scene had stopped wearing his Plate lately, letting Tearim wear it instead) rush back and put his armor on? He told Szeth that he had expected an assassination attempt, but if he knew the exact timing, one would expect him to be much better prepared. If he knew that it would take place that night, but not when, one might expect that he'd still be much better prepared, AND he'd be wearing his plate the entire time, or at least as long as propriety allowed once the treaty signing was completed... I can come up with a crackpot theory or two, but I feel ridiculous enough even asking the question. Anybody else want to take a stab at this, offer a different accounting of the timeframe, or just tell me I'm nuts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I was wondering about this too, actually. Plate takes a while to put on - how could Gavilar had known to take it from Tearim? And why has Tearim not been mentioned in those two books? I have to wonder if some weird switch took place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I made a theory on this just before release. Massive unsupported speculation that Gavilar didn't die, it was Tearim in his Plate. WoR really offers no clues on this. The time skip Jasnah experienced in Shadesmar had to have lasted an hour or something. Still, I don't know why Gavilar would have went in Plate. The Stormfather warned him, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ati Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Moogle, Looks like I need to do a better job in my cursory searches before posting. Speculative perhaps, but well detailed. A couple points: First, I have a slightly different interpretation on the Jasnah based timing. The idea that she spent an extended period of Roshar time in Shadesmar is supported only by Szeth's comment about when Gavilar left the party (so far as I can tell). But there is absolutely nothing to prevent Gavilar from having walked around having various shady conferences between when he leaves the party and encounters Jasnah. As far as him saying that he's going back to the party, I offer two potential solutions. 1. He lied. I don't think this would be a shock based on the feel of his exchange with Jasnah. 2. He planned to return to the party, but whatever caused him to put his shardplate on happened en route and he never made it to the party. Szeth's POV in WoK certainly allows for either of these in my opinion. As further support, someone on your thread pointed out that any Shadesmar time dilation we've seen so far results in very little time passing in Roshar. I also agree with your assessment that her choking puts a hard limit on time spent in Shadesmar. Second, I saw that some people raised some concerns regarding the possibility of using lightweaving to disguise Tearim as Gavilar. I would need to see a lot more evidence before I was convinced that Gavilar was alive, but I will offer an alternative to lightweaving that I didn't notice proposed in your thread. I believe I read in WoB that Shai is present on Roshar. Now, I don't recall ES stating that Gaotona changed form when Shai stamped him, so this idea would hinge on whether that is possible or not. Still, I would think Tearim would be the third best candidate to imprint as Gavilar following Dalinar and Elhokar. So, again, I don't actually think it happened, but I suppose it's another possible route. One that should not have interference with shardplate as an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Jasnah noted Gavilar looked with suspicion and I think it's reasonable to assume something worried him, so he decided to put on his Plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Looks like I need to do a better job in my cursory searches before posting. Speculative perhaps, but well detailed. I wouldn't worry about it. It was pre-release, and searching on these forums is really hard. This forum deserves a remake with all of WoR's information anyways. 1. He lied. I don't think this would be a shock based on the feel of his exchange with Jasnah. 2. He planned to return to the party, but whatever caused him to put his shardplate on happened en route and he never made it to the party. Szeth's POV in WoK certainly allows for either of these in my opinion. As further support, someone on your thread pointed out that any Shadesmar time dilation we've seen so far results in very little time passing in Roshar. I also agree with your assessment that her choking puts a hard limit on time spent in Shadesmar. 1. Possibly. I'm unsure on matters. 2. But what could this possibly be? Why would he bother taking his Plate off Tearim? It's a huge unanswered question. Second, I saw that some people raised some concerns regarding the possibility of using lightweaving to disguise Tearim as Gavilar. I would need to see a lot more evidence before I was convinced that Gavilar was alive, but I will offer an alternative to lightweaving that I didn't notice proposed in your thread. I believe I read in WoB that Shai is present on Roshar. For my part, I think Gavilar woke up the Unmade, or had Amaram do it. He obviously had knowledge of the past (probably via the visions). Nalan has a Lightweaving fabrial (or so I assume based on his ability to become made of darkness - Shallan does the exact same thing), so I wouldn't put the possibility of Gavilar being Lightweaved completely out of the question. That said, I do think Gavilar is dead. His final message - "tell my brother, he must find the most important words a man can say" - is not something Tearim would say, I think. I find the possibility of Shai changing Tearim to be a bit unlikely. I think it's a bit too blatant of a cross-Cosmere thing, and Forging doesn't seem capable of changing your appearance into another person's. Though, perhaps you could have a stamp that says "I was made to wear makeup to look like Gavilar" or something? Hrm. It's an interesting idea, certainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I think we have to give Brandon a little bit of wiggle room here. My take on Tearim wearing Gavilar's Plate is that it's a sign that Gavilar is being influenced by the Way of Kings and is starting to not rely/trust his Shards as much as he used to. There's no way to avoid the fact that he's dead - his Shardblade appeared, he carried the dark sphere, he told Szeth to give Dalinar the message from Way of Kings, his body was left behind and likely Soulcast into stone several days later, etc. And yes, he was prepared for an assassination attempt, as evidenced by his discussion with Szeth. That's why Tearim was standing behind him in Plate, and that's why he changed into it so quickly. Also, Jasnah probably spent more time walking around the palace than it seems - just because not a lot of lines of text get devoted to her walking around doesn't mean that the government headquarters of the biggest kingdom on Roshar is a small place. An out of the way room for meeting an assassin would have to be pretty far from both the feast area and the living quarters of the royal family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 He obviously has a very special plate, and wanted to be like Tony Stark from Iron Man 2 Seriously, though. As said earlier, Gavilar was expecting an assassination, but didn't know who would attempt it. My bet is that Gavilar picked up on the nervous Parshendi. While he didn't expect them to send a human shardblade-wielding assassin, there's a good chance that he surmised that they knew that something was going to happen. As to how he interpreted it, it was just him being paranoid and ended up being correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrindIf Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 The last words Galivar told Dalinar, just before the party, were: Brother, follow the Codes tonight. There is something wrong upon the winds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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