Autonomy's Avatars: A Dialogue

[Confused]

@Calderis and I recently discussed the nature of Avatars on Discord. We ended up agreeing on some points and disagreeing on others. I thought the discussion interesting enough to share and memorialize here.  

Autonomy creates Avatars like Patji on First of the Sun. She finds deposits of the assigned Investiture she inherits from Adonalsium and infuses them with consciousness. The Avatars become autonomous actors. We don't know the degree of each Avatar’s autonomy.

I think Cal and I agree:

1. Avatars share Autonomy’s pool of Spiritual Realm Investiture with her.

2. Avatar creation doesn’t change the aggregate amount of Autonomy’s Spiritual Realm Investiture available for magic.

3. As a logical corollary to the first two points, each new Avatar proportionally reduces how much Spiritual Realm Investiture is theoretically available to each previous Avatar and to Autonomy herself.

4. Avatars seem more powerful than most splinters.

We disagree on these points:

5. Cal and @Spoolofwhool think Autonomy grants consciousness by implanting a seed of her mind into her found Investiture. They believe this “mind-split” is what allocates Autonomy’s power (her capacity to make magic), since cosmere power tends to be proportionate to the mind that wields it. They say Autonomy deliberately weakens her own mind (in small increments) to install this power balance.

I instead think Autonomy programs a consciousness for each Avatar from raw Spiritual Realm Investiture and leaves her mind intact. IMO, Bavadin has no reason to diminish her finite mental capacity when she can use her infinite raw Investiture for the same purpose. Knowing Odium is on the prowl, why would Bavadin weaken herself in favor of her Avatars, who are localized on their Shardworlds?

6. Cal says Autonomy has more Spiritual Realm Investiture “available for use” than any other Shard. He attributes this to the Avatars. I agree Autonomy and her Avatars can collectively drain their Spiritual Realm Investiture pool at a faster rate than other Shards can. That’s the benefit of multiple minds directing the Investiture – it’s like inserting more straws into a drink. But since the aggregate volume of the Investiture pool remains constant, I disagree more Investiture is “available for use.” (Cal tells me he does not think “available for use” and “faster draw rate” are the same thing.)

7. Cal believes Avatars share a single Spiritual aspect with Autonomy, though each Avatar has its own Cognitive aspect. He says Radiant spren have a different Cognitive aspect from their Knight, and the Nahel bond nonetheless merges their souls. Cal analogizes this “one soul – two minds” to Avatars.

I think each Avatar has its own Spiritual aspect. I believe every mind that imprints Investiture has its own soul. Each Avatar’s separate soul is made from Autonomy. They're probably Connected to one another and Autonomy in other ways. But IMO these Connections don’t cause the Avatars to share a Spiritual aspect any more than an honorspren made from Honor’s Investiture is part of Honor’s soul. I also think the Avatar-Radiant spren analogy breaks down because KR-spren minds and souls don’t fully merge until the KR swears the Fifth Oath (IMO).

8. I think splinters and Avatars have different origins. (I’m not sure what Cal believes about this.) Splinters are bits of raw Spiritual Realm Investiture that develop sentience (sometimes on their own, sometimes granted by Shards). Avatars are deposits of Autonomy’s Investiture Adonalsium left on Shardworlds to which Autonomy grants consciousness. IOW, splinters descend from the Spiritual Realm while Avatars incorporate Investiture that already exists in all three Realms.

*   *   *   *   *

Please add your opinions. Cal, did I express your views accurately?

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

3. As a logical corollary to the first two points, each new Avatar proportionally reduces how much Spiritual Realm Investiture is theoretically available to each previous Avatar and to Autonomy herself.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

5. Cal and @Spoolofwhool think Autonomy grants consciousness by implanting a seed of her mind into her found Investiture. They believe this “mind-split” is what allocates Autonomy’s power (her capacity to make magic), since cosmere power tends to be proportionate to the mind that wields it. They say Autonomy deliberately weakens her own mind (in small increments) to install this power balance.

I instead think Autonomy programs a consciousness for each Avatar from raw Spiritual Realm Investiture and leaves her mind intact. IMO, Bavadin has no reason to diminish her finite mental capacity when she can use her infinite raw Investiture for the same purpose. Knowing Odium is on the prowl, why would Bavadin weaken herself in favor of her Avatars, who are localized on their Shardworlds?

6. Cal says Autonomy has more Spiritual Realm Investiture “available for use” than any other Shard. He attributes this to the Avatars. I agree Autonomy and her Avatars can collectively drain their Spiritual Realm Investiture pool at a faster rate than other Shards can. That’s the benefit of multiple minds directing the Investiture – it’s like inserting more straws into a drink. But since the aggregate volume of the Investiture pool remains constant, I disagree more Investiture is “available for use.” (Cal tells me he does not think “available for use” and “faster draw rate” are the same thing.)

On this points, I don't think that there I less Investiture available. It is infinite. I don't think there's a "draw rate" or that the "pool empties faster" because the pool can't be diminished. All Avatars, sharing the same Spiritual aspect, draw from the exact same pool and it is limitless. The only limit is Cognitive. They are bound by how much their, albeit expanded, mind can handle and do to the nature of the Cognitive this binds then to the location they have invested as well. 

I believe that Bavadin is bypassing these restrictions be by seeding her mind into a new investiture pool located through the Spiritual Realm. 

In doing so, she increases the investiture pool available to all of her Avatars, but limits how much each individual avatar is able to wield independently. 

Overall this creates more available Investiture for use by Bavadin, and a greater influence throughout the Cosmere, at the cost of less power on each specific location. 

The alternative in my view, is the ability to reach out and awaken potentially all of the investiture assigned to Autonomy in the Cosmere of any significant size at absolutely no cost making her without question the strongest shard existing. That feels like something directly in opposition to Brandon's philosophy of "Limitations are more interesting than powers."

On the single Spiritual aspect, there are two points for why I think they have a single Spiritual aspect. First is this WoB, which I think indicates that a single Spiritual aspect with multiple minds is possible, which you referenced. 

Quote

yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

source

A single individual. In my mind these means shared Identity, and a combined Spiritual aspect. 

Then there is the new terminology. I don't believe the word Avatar would be necessary if they were simply a large Splinter. Taking into account what Avatar means...

Quote

noun

1. Hindu Mythology. the descent of a deity tothe earth in an incarnate form or somemanifest shape; the incarnation of a god
2. an embodiment or personification, as of a principle, attitude, or view of life.
3. Digital Technology. a graphical image that represents a person, as on the Internet.

I think all apply. An incarnation of a deity. A personification of an attitude. And most importantly, a representation of a person. 

I believe the Avatars are literally a representative projection of the Spiritual Aspect of Bavadin as a Vessel. A projection granted its own mind in order to bypass the Cognitive limitations in order to expand outward.

[Confused]

Cal, your theory seems to rest on the premise Investiture is limitless: “All Avatars…draw from the exact same pool and it is limitless.” I think Investiture (in all its forms) has an upper limit, though an unimaginably large one. I think this explains our divergent views.

Brandon does say cosmere Investiture is “infinite”; but I think Brandon means “vast, immense, incapable of measure or comprehension,” not “limitless or endless.” (Those are all dictionary definitions.) Limitless Investiture IMO is contrary to cosmere thermodynamics.

Here’s a post-Oathbringer WoB about this:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Source (emphasis added).

If the sum of cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture is fixed (“Nothing’s growing or shrinking”), Investiture can’t be limitless. It can be infinitely divisible into smaller units (like a set of numbers), but a fixed amount of Investiture (in whatever form) intrinsically has limits, no matter how incomprehensibly vast that amount is.

The cosmere narrative proves this. There would be no difference among Shards if each has a limitless store of Investiture to make magic with. Why should Rayse care that Sazed holds two Shards if both Vessels control a limitless amount of Investiture? Two times infinity is still infinity. That Odium does care means he does not view his power equal to Harmony’s. Brandon confirms this: “by raw power [Harmony] is stronger than Odium.”

From this, I conclude Brandon doesn’t use “infinite” to mean limitless. There’s just an unimaginably large amount of Investiture. If Investiture has limits (even unimaginably large ones), Autonomy can’t increase the fixed amount of her Investiture through Avatar creation or otherwise.

On 7/19/2018 at 5:16 PM, Calderis said:

The only limit is Cognitive. They are bound by how much their, albeit expanded, mind can handle...

Sazed can direct twice as much Investiture as Rayse, yet their minds are presumably equal in capacity. IMO, a Vessel’s “finite mind” only affects where it focuses its attention (as @Argent puts it). But even their finite minds can make magic with all their known Investiture.

On 7/19/2018 at 5:16 PM, Calderis said:

I believe that Bavadin is bypassing these restrictions be by seeding her mind into a new investiture pool located through the Spiritual Realm. 

Bavadin focuses her attention on finding pockets of her “assigned Investiture.” But this Investiture isn’t “new.” It’s always been there and has always been Autonomy-type Investiture even before the Shattering “assigned” it to Autonomy. Once she finds this Investiture, Bavadin could direct it herself without creating Avatars for this purpose. We don’t really know why she makes them.

Brandon says in your quoted WoB that spren and Knight “are actually melding into one individual.” Swearing oaths is a process of growth and self-realization. (You would say, “cultivation.”) I think we agree the complete merger of spren and Knight doesn’t occur until the Knight swears the Fifth Oath. IMO, this WoB confirms our mutual view. To repeat, I believe there is a one-to-one relationship between minds and souls. Dysians have one mind and one soul but many bodies; but we haven’t yet seen cosmere entities with many minds and one soul.

On the meaning of “Avatar”: Paragraph 8 of the OP shows Avatars and splinters have different origins. They are not the same thing. (I also think Neal Stephenson should get royalties each time someone defines “avatar” as a digital representation…)

Edited July 24, 2018 by Confused

[Calderis he/him]

I think you're over simplifying the concept of infinity. There are multiple types of infinity. The Shards, at least in my opinion are infinite and this does not preclude Harmony from being stronger then Odium. His has simultaneous access to two infinite pools that can be used in tandem for multiple purposes. The additional expansion of multiple pools of power may also have expanded his mind further. 

Infinity as a basic concept of "this is endless" is simple. Infinity is... Much more than that though, and two infinities need not be equal.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Calderis

[Rhapsody she/her]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I think you're over simplifying the concept of infinity. There are multiple types of infinity. The Shards, at least in my opinion are infinite and this does not preclude Harmony from being stronger then Odium. His has simultaneous access to two infinite pools that can be used in tandem for multiple purposes. The additional expansion of multiple pools of power may also have expanded his mind further. 

Infinity as a basic concept of "this is endless" is simple. Infinity is... Much more than that though, and two infinities need not be equal.

Well I believe this WOB contradicts you:

Quote

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

source

Also each shard got an equal amount of investiture at the shattering

Quote

Shardbound

Does each Shard have the same quantity or quality of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes. They were equal proportions originally, how about that.

source

The amount of investiture a single shard can acces is still unbelievably vast, which is why I think Brandon speaks of infinite Investiture in the WOB quoted by @Confused.

I believe the difference between having one or two shards is more in how easy it is to find investiture one can use. Since all investiture got assigned to one of the shards and they seem to be only able to use investiture asigned to them it would be a lot easier to locate more investiture if you can access two types instead of one. Which is why Sazed is more powerful than Odium in terms of raw accessible power. He will find more investiture he can tinker with in the same timespan than Odium. Odium has more experience though.

10 hours ago, Confused said:

Bavadin focuses her attention on finding pockets of her “assigned Investiture.” But this Investiture isn’t “new.” It’s always been there and has always been Autonomy-type Investiture even before the Shattering “assigned” it to Autonomy. Once she finds this Investiture, Bavadin could direct it herself without creating Avatars for this purpose. We don’t really know why she makes them.

Here is what I believe: Even if she finds that investiture sometime her mind will be too narrow to be aware of all the investiture she has found. It is like multitasking. One can manage to do three to four things simultaneously, someone may even be able to do even more things but everyone has a limit somewhere on how many different things they can concentrate at the same time. Therefore I believe she creates avatars that can access other investiture pockets than Bavadins original mind.

In conclusion she is not getting more power because that power has always been hers even if she wasn't aware of it. Her avatars allow her instead to access more of that power at any given time. It is like an orchester: one man couldn't play all instruments at the same time but if each instrument is played by another person than more music is created (=more investiture accesible at the same time).

(Sorry for the strange metaphors =) it  is just how I try to imagine those things)

On 20.7.2018 at 2:16 AM, Calderis said:

The alternative in my view, is the ability to reach out and awaken potentially all of the investiture assigned to Autonomy in the Cosmere of any significant size at absolutely no cost making her without question the strongest shard existing. That feels like something directly in opposition to Brandon's philosophy of "Limitations are more interesting than powers."

I agree that there have to be drawbacks. If there aren't and a shard can therefore expand their power without cost why don't all the shards use this possibility? They probably by now realized what Bavadin is doing and given the timespan they existed and their expanded minds by now could have figured out how to do the same if they wanted to. If they could do the same without worries why don't they? The only possibilities in my opinion are that either this is something only possible for autonomy (creating autonomous beings sounds like something more suitable to Autonomy than for example Honor) or it has serious drawbacks the other shards don't want to risk.

I believe @Calderishas a point in that probably the mind of the vessel is somehow affected by the process. Either because it really is split (creating something like a shizophrenic personality) or that one of the minds can access less power than before (like together the avatar+Bavadins original mind are more powerful but if one only considers Bavadins mind she can access less investiture)

On the other hand I believe a possible problem of this process could be that the avatars do not necessarily have the same agenda as Bavadin. They may have the same goal and Bavadin probably has a say as to their personality during avatar creation but I do not believe that they all agree on everything. Therefore it could be that one or several avatars refuse to work together with the others. In my opinion we already got a clue that could be so in the letter in OB. If not all her avatars work together Bavadins possibilities again would be hampered which could be one of those drawbacks.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Rhapsody

[Calderis he/him]

@Rhapsody I don't see those things as exclusive.

The Shards, in my opinion are infinite. But the Cosmere is only the dwarf galaxy in which the shardworlds exist, and the localization of the Vessels Cognitive limits them to investiture of their type in their given sphere of influence. 

So Endowment is currently wielding a finite amount of investiture. It is limited to the power within her sphere. If she were to do what Autonomy has, that would expand outward. 

I don't think the Shards are contained to the Cosmere. I just think it's all we'll see. 

[Rhapsody she/her]

@Calderis I agree the shards are limited to their sphere of influence by the localization of the vessel and that Bavadin is expanding that sphere by creating avatars.

But I still believe Investiture has a finite quantity. Just like our universe has a finite amount of matter. and it doesn't make a difference if you only look at a dwarf galaxy or the whole universe, matter is still finite what changed is the quantity you observe. That quantity is still unbelievably vast. That is the same for investiture. There is a finite amount but it is so much that no one will ever run out. Does that make sense?

In my opinion the shards could manipulate all the investiture of their kind in the universe if they were aware of it but the finite capacity of their minds limits them to which and how much investiture they can use at any given time. 

[Calderis he/him]

@Rhapsody fair enough, at that point though, at least from the perspective of the Vessel's limited capacity, I don't see an effective difference. 

[Rhapsody she/her]

@Calderis I agree from the viewpoint of the vessel it wouldn't make a difference.

Which is I believe one of the reasons I agree with much of your post above and most of my post was expanding on that and trying to say what I believe are possible answers to your questions. 

Now back to topic.

What I would really like to know is how individual each avatar is and how autonomous. Are their Personalities similar to Bavadin or completly different. Can she decide on their personality during creation? Are they parts of her own personality split from the Rest? How much influence does Bavadin have on them during creation or later? Are they all equal?