Odium's_Shard Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I believe that has something to do with footprints he left at the Well (my memory has been proven to be quite terrible though). Also I recently saw a quote from Brandon than stated that whatever Hoid is aiming towards crosses paths with 17th Shard, if not in direct antagonism to them (though since both of their intentions are as yet unknown this isn't of much use). Odium's_Shard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 (edited) Hoid is either a brilliant mastermind that can clearly see how everything fits together, and nudges pieces in the right direction in hopes of defeating Odium, or he is a brilliantly gifted agent of his own design that he is seeking to achieve. If he has a secret agenda, it will become more obvious as more of his interventions are noticed. Is it possible that Hoid is actually being manipulated by whatever power he uses to know where to be? In Warbreaker he pushes Siri into further distrusting the priests. In Mistborn he helps them overthrow the Empire. In Stormlight he helps the Surgebinders we know further their bonds. Each case seems to fall in line with what the shard of the planet wanted aside from stormlight. He also doesn't always know why he has to be at a certain location so that makes me think he merely acts in a way that he thinks his good regardless of where he is since he doesn't know the importance of his actions. Makes me wonder who is truly doing the manipulating here. Ruin thought he was getting what he wanted by being freed but it turned out that was actually Preservation plan all along. The same thing with Siri where Bluefingers thought he was winning but by making Siri distrust the priests he helped tighten the bond between Suseborn and Siri which I would assume actually helped them in the long run. EDIT: I always thought part of the reason Vin didn't go to Hoid was due to lightweaving. It's mentioned how similiar Yolen lightweaver is to Stormlight. From Shallan we see that lightweaving forms a layer on the skin so I imagine if you are as perceptive as Vin you might find subtle discrepancies with how the illusion interacts with the world. It's most likely something less mundane though Edited March 29, 2014 by Numb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I think he is attempting to increase Cosmere-awareness in preparation for the possible coming apocalypse or danger presented by Ryse. By pushing Shardworlds forwards in their understanding of Investiture, he acts in a dangerous way (because you never know what people might do with this power), and perhaps this is why 17th Shard finds him to be reckless. Odium's_Shard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I think 17th Shard just view him as an anomaly. He doesn't seem to follow any pattern from an outside perspective. Merely appears at random events of various importance and makes bad jokes constantly. Having that kind of unknown variable in your system is extremely dangerous. He not only doesn't follow your rules but he doesn't even make sense most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Its his esoterics that I feel make him particularly dangerous, but also an indication of his brilliance. He seems to have everything worked out, and yet at the same time he seems to feel like he doesn't know enough to do what needs to be done. It obviously also makes him a great character to read about, in the same way that I enjoy Lightsong's humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Nah, OP, Hoid isn't the ultimate antagonist--he's the original. Or at least, I think he's the reason Adonalsium shattered originally, and he's been trying to make up for it ever since. That explains why he favors action over inaction (even if this eventuality was planned for, as The Reply letter implies is possible), steps he's willing to take (look, when you killed God once already, annihilating a planet and all of its inhabitants seems like less of a crime in comparison), and why he doesn't have a Shard when, of anyone we know of in the Cosmere, he would be most likely to do so (I find it incomprehensible to believe that he couldn't have picked up either Preservation or Ruin had he chosen, but if you're trying to put God back together, it's bad form to eat him). There's not really anything in-book to support my thought, but it makes me happy and nothing that I'm aware of contradicts it, so it's what I go with for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistdork Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) I figure Hoid the same way I figure the Lord Ruler: a well-intentioned extremist. It's something that is very prevalent in Brandon's books, probably because of the previously mentioned optimism.I suspect Hoid's statement to Dalinar is because he's been in the situation before, where someone did count on him and his own goals made it end poorly. I think this is the same reason Kelsier and Hoid wouldn't get along... and it makes me suspect that Vasher and Hoid would also not be the best of friends. I always figured that the reason Kelsier and Hoid wouldn't get along is that they're too similar, both will do anything for their goals (if they perceive them as good according to their idea of morality), even if that means bad things happen, they believe that even worse things would happen as a result. Their moralities could be considered even...egocentric...in the sense that it focuses on their experiences and what they (and not society) thinks is wrong. This doesn't mean that Hoid's sense of morality doesn't align to a more...normal sense of morality, but we have to admit that at the very least, it's a little screwed up compared to everyone else's. Vasher though...probably just sees Hoid as an annoying pest, that really isn't all that different to how he sees people in general though... I think that Rayse shattered Adonalsium. He had a spiteful, even hate-filled personality before he took Odium, so purposefully shattering, or being the cause of its shattering doesn't seem outside of his character. Even if he somehow forced Hoid to do it, Rayse seems like a better candidate for the "Who-Shattered-Adonalsium" position than Hoid. One thing we do know is Hoid wants revenge on Rayse for personal reasons along with his more...heroic? aim (this is according to the Letters in both books or something like that). It probably isn't exactly the best reason, but whatever his reasons are, they're more varied than being just another well-intentioned extremist... Edited March 31, 2014 by Nymp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I always figured that the reason Kelsier and Hoid wouldn't get along is that they're too similar, both will do anything for their goals (if they perceive them as good according to their idea of morality), even if that means bad things happen, they believe that even worse things would happen as a result. Their moralities could be considered even...egocentric...in the sense that it focuses on their experiences and what they (and not society) thinks is wrong. This doesn't mean that Hoid's sense of morality doesn't align to a more...normal sense of morality, but we have to admit that at the very least, it's a little screwed up compared to everyone else's. Vasher though...probably just sees Hoid as an annoying pest, that really isn't all that different to how he sees people in general though... I think that Rayse shattered Adonalsium. He had a spiteful, even hate-filled personality before he took Odium, so purposefully shattering, or being the cause of its shattering doesn't seem outside of his character. Even if he somehow forced Hoid to do it, Rayse seems like a better candidate for the "Who-Shattered-Adonalsium" position than Hoid. One thing we do know is Hoid wants revenge on Rayse for personal reasons along with his more...heroic? aim (this is according to the Letters in both books or something like that). It probably isn't exactly the best reason, but whatever his reasons are, they're more varied than being just another well-intentioned extremist... I don't disagree with your first point, although Kelsier was kind of pulling a heel-face turn on the psychotic murderer thing towards the end of his life, thanks to Vin. It's debatable whether Hoid has that same moment of clarity, but as for Vasher... Vasher spends an awful lot of time in Warbreaker trying to prevent actions very similar to Kelsier's (an oppressed minority starting a major govermental upset in order to claim freedom). Can't imagine he'd be too big a fan of Kelsier, and I suspect that he'd find Hoid more annoying than Lightsong... although Hoid and Lightsong could have probably been bromance buddies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogs Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Lou Anders has said many times on Brandon's own Writing Excuse podcast about the Hollywood Formula that the antagonist must be in direct opposition with the protagonist, specifically the antagonist must try to prevent the protagonist from reaching his or her goal. If Hoid is the antagonist, who is the protagonist? If Hoid trying to put all the pieces of the Shards together is a "bad" thing, who are the "good" people that have been working to keep the Shards apart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamantame Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Lou Anders has said many times on Brandon's own Writing Excuse podcast about the Hollywood Formula that the antagonist must be in direct opposition with the protagonist, specifically the antagonist must try to prevent the protagonist from reaching his or her goal. If Hoid is the antagonist, who is the protagonist? If Hoid trying to put all the pieces of the Shards together is a "bad" thing, who are the "good" people that have been working to keep the Shards apart? The 17th Shard? They are trying to hunt Hoid down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I think that Rayse shattered Adonalsium. He had a spiteful, even hate-filled personality before he took Odium, so purposefully shattering, or being the cause of its shattering doesn't seem outside of his character. Even if he somehow forced Hoid to do it, Rayse seems like a better candidate for the "Who-Shattered-Adonalsium" position than Hoid. One thing we do know is Hoid wants revenge on Rayse for personal reasons along with his more...heroic? aim (this is according to the Letters in both books or something like that). It probably isn't exactly the best reason, but whatever his reasons are, they're more varied than being just another well-intentioned extremist... Perhaps they wanted the Investiture, the power they could feel within Adonalsium. Presumably, there was only one system of magic (or none at all, if Investiture cycles only form around Intent and Adonalsium's Intent was perfectly balanced), and they wanted several (or one at all). Perhaps Hoid led the way towards the Shattering, not knowing what it would cause. Much like in Wheel of Time (spoilers ahead): When The Dark One was stored in his prison, and the Aes Sedai saw his power there within, much stronger than the One Power (they saw the True Power, the very essence of the Dark One), and they released it thinking it would benefit society (and also from a slight power hunger that Hoid might then have emulated). I believe it was noted in either The Letter or The Reply that once Rayse was not like this (I might be wrong) but regardless my opinion is that Rayse, as one of those who colluded to the Shattering, took the Shard thinking of its power, or maybe even forced by Hoid to take the Shard, not knowing its Intent, and was twisted by it. Perhaps Hoid is trying to stop Rayse/Odium (this is all speculation and hypotheticals) because by Splintering the other Shards, and removing the forces of willpower (the Shardholders) that keep them from reforming, he is (maybe accidentally) allowing Adonalsium to slowly re-coalesce. So either Hoid is the direct antagonist, the misled reformed hero, or the true protagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Worth noting, Hoid mentions in The Letter than the Seventeenth Shard probably wouldn't even know what to do with him if they ever caught him. In the HoA Ars Arcanum, Hoid is listed as "A mystery yet to be solved". I don't know if that part of it is in-universe, but if so it could be that the Shard is several centuries behind everybody else in terms of knowledge, and is probably made up of people who caught on to the Cosmere and have brought a few others along for the ride. Kind of meta now that I think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OdiYum Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 Hello, I posted this in my introduction thread, but I am moving it here. I personally think that Hoid is doing everything he can to get the shard worlds into direct conflict with Rayse, while crippling Rayse's ability to effectively war (Way of Kings was my first Sanderson book so that may be effecting my perspective). The WoK letter made me think that Hoid had a personal grievance against Rayse. So far it seems like every world he has visited he has aided the magic wielders (and by extension their shards) whose intent opposes that of Odium. On Sel he helps Raodin's lady friend smuggle in weapons which eventually led to the re-establishment of Elantris, but there is no mention of him helping magic wielders of dominion (as far as I remember). On Scradiel, his actions lead to the defeat of Ruin, and the creation of Harmony, not only depriving Odium of a powerful ally (despite the fact that he doesn't want allies), but it also deprived him of a shard that he could pick up that would not drastically alter his intent (I kind of think Ruin is more about changing the world/universe than destroying it). "Hatred leads to anger, anger leads to destruction and so on." Now Rayse can't pick up Ruin, without getting preservation (without shattering Harmony, which I don't think he is strong enough to do directly). On Roshar, Hoid is clearly picking sides against Rayse. He has stated that he is fighting against the father of hatred in WoR, but he would watch the world burn if he needed to. I believe (with little evidence), that Hoid is sick of the Cold War-esque events on Roshar for the past 5,000 years. I think that Hoid sped up the return of the KR in order to bring about the Everstorm. This desolation is the never ending desolation. Either Odium is defeated, or Odium wins, destroys Roshar and moves on to another shard system, creating a threat large enough to force the other shards (and the seventeenth shard) into overt action. Either way, Hoid get what he wants, which is war against Rayse. Sorry for the long post =/ PS Odium Reigns 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Bloody Cauthon Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 i personally believe that hoid is really a good guy. he would be willing to let some die to achieve his goals, but I believe that his goals will help more than they hurt. other than that I am withholding my judgment until more is known about him and the other worldhoppers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seonookim Posted April 25, 2014 Report Share Posted April 25, 2014 For some reason, Hoid is my least favorite Worldhopper. I have no idea why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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