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[OB] Theory: Obrodai is First of the Sun

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Ok, where to start with this?

In Oathbringer, there are 3 letters addressed to Hoid, each from a Shard. The second one is confirmed to be from Autonomy. Here's an excerpt.


We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai. We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there. She is young yet, and--as a precaution--she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you. This is all we will say at this time. If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created. 

Only in this will you earn our respect.

This is Autonomy alright. The whole 'we are me' thing makes it obvious, as well as the fact that it's been confirmed.

Now, the letter states that there is a planet called Obrodai, and 'a new avatar' of Autonomy is beginning to manifest there, who is young. It also mentions near the end to 'seek these waters' and to 'overcome the tests we have created.' Right, now we know what to look for. And we can find it in First of the Sun

A quick search on Arcanum can show many WOBs that Patji is a Shard, and more that say Patji is an avatar of Autonomy. Doesn't this sound similar to the avatar that is mentioned in the letter. Maybe you're wondering what even is an Autonomy avatar. Here's a WOB to explain it.



Can a Shard go to a planet, create an autonomous Splinter, and then leave the system of the planet and then *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's possible. In fact, that's happened. You've seen that happen.

Okay, so Shards can do that. Now, what Shard would be most likely to create autonomous splinters on other planets, one that is known to have multiple personas, which could very well be aforementioned autonomous splinters? Autonomy!

Autonomy mentions an avatar on Obrodai, and its confirmed there's an avatar on FotS (Patji), what's to say they can't be different? Well, a bunch of similarities, that's what!

Remember, Autonomy mentions the Obrodai avatar as young and female, which contradicts the wise, old man thing that is associated with Patji. Well, Brandon has said Sixth of the Dusk is the latest in the Cosmere we've seen, and so it makes sense for the young splinter to become wise, and a gender-change wouldn't be among the most drastic misconceptions we've seen happen through time.

Also, Autonomy mentions in the letter to 'seek these waters' and 'overcome the tests we've created'. This is where the idea of Obrodai (an early prototype name for what would become First of the Sun in the future) and First of the Sun being the same really cements for me. Which stories have had the most dominance of water and the ocean throughout what we've read? Why, First of the Sun, the world which is pretty much a bunch of islands! It makes sense for Autonomy to mention coming to FotS as seeking its waters, as that's what it mostly is.

Also, keep in mind how deadly FotS is. Pretty much everything wants to kill you, making it a very dangerous place. Does this not sound like the 'tests' Autonomy mentions? After all, the islands on FotS, Patji especially, are BRUTAL, and all of its dangers do seem like a big obstacle course.  What other ways would there be to earn a Shard's respect, especially one who isn't on the best of terms with Hoid.

So, in short, what Autonomy mentions of Obrodai, and what we see of FotS seem way too similar, and it can only be guessed that they are, indeed, the same.

(PS. Maybe this is actually really obvious and everyone knows it, and I just proved my stupidity by theorizing of it. Oh well)

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  • Pagerunner changed the title to [OB] Theory: Obrodai is First of the Sun

I always got the impression the place of "these waters" and Obradai were definitely NOT the same place.

To me it sounds Hoid went to Obradai to leave his message but the avatar there is young. As such the Patji avatar responded instead and warned him not to return to Obradai and that if he wanted to speak more he should go to Patji itself and earn its respect.


I could very well be wrong but thats my two cents.

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Some good connections, like identifying the First of the Sun references, but I think you're missing one key aspect of this letter: who exactly is writing it. The letter writer instructs Hoid to avoid Obrodai, but welcomes him to "these waters." That indicates they are two separate places, and that calling it "these waters" as opposed to "those waters" means that it is the avatar on First of the Sun (a.k.a. Patji) who is the letter writer, not the Vessel of Autonomy herself. (Which explains the "You have spoken to one who cannot respond" line earlier in that letter; Hoid wrote to Bavadin, but left the letter with Patji.) 

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Autonomy never "visited" First of the Sun and there are no Splinters of Autonomy there.

The Investiture on FotS predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. Later Shards (probably including Autonomy) have fiddled with it and now it holds an avatar of Autonomy.


Autonomy never "invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

Source is here and it is a very complex thing. But as far as we know, avatar is not the same thing as a Splinter. The lump of Investiture on FotS was not a part of the bulk of the Shard, while Splinter is something that got split off the Shard.


3 hours ago, I think I am here. said:

This is Autonomy alright. The whole 'we are me' thing makes it obvious

Until we learned about avatars, it did not make any sense for Autonomy to be speaking like a hive mind.

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  • 1 year later...

Idk man. Patji is dangerous sure but Hoid has survived worse. The creatures on patji , the nightmaws , the monsters of the deep, Poisonous plants. They are dangerous to ordinary humans without access to magic or technology but Hoid can easily survive them. So I don't think autonomy would give such easy tests to Hoid. I'm sure the tests are either far more dangerous or far more complicated than just running away or killing a few animals. 

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