[OB] Odium IS the Shard of Passion (Sort of)

[Confused]

Before the next Shardcast addresses this question, I thought I’d try. Posters describe Odium as hateful emotion, a consuming passion, a “fervor.” But Brandon says Shards represent some “primal force” like stasis or entropy – some universal “fundamental law” – not some aspect of Divine Personality. The Spoiler parses the WoB that IMO confirms this.

Spoiler

Here’s the WoB in full, followed by my analysis of the numbered, bolded passages:

Quote

Questioner

Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature.

Brandon Sanderson

[1] So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. [2] They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. [3] And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And [4] those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium[BS1] .

So I view this for all of them. Like, Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by. And there's this sense that that is noble, that's the honor aspect to it, but there's also something not honorable about Honor if taken from the other direction. So [5] a lot of them do kind of have this both... cultural component, I would say, that trying to represent something that is also natural. And [6] not all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way. 

So I find Honor very interesting, but I find Autonomy a very interesting one for the exact same reason. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? And this is where you end up with things like Odium claiming "I am all emotion." But then there's a charged term for it that is associated with this Shard. I'm not going to tell you whether he's right or not, but he has an argument. 

Source (emphasis added).

1. “So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature. And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality.”

Technically, this statement means the “primal forces” are attached to personality, not the other way around; but I think the statement is ambiguous. Brandon spoke these words. IMO, they do not hold the grammatical weight of a written response. The best we can say is primal forces relate to personality.

2. “[Ruin and Preservation] are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y.”

Brandon identifies these Shards’ “primal forces.”

3. “And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same.”

I think this passage confirms Shards are “primal forces” first, not personalities. Brandon identifies the human part as “personality.” He calls Ruin and Preservation “charged terms” – human terms – for the primal forces they represent.

4. “And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium.”

I read the sentence to mean “people and Adonalsium” view personality aspects – the “charged terms” – the same. Words like Ruin, Preservation, Honor and Autonomy have common meaning to man and god.

5. “[A] lot of them do kind of have this both...cultural component, I would say, that trying to represent something that is also natural.”

Brandon elsewhere describes Shards as Greek gods – flawed humans wielding divine power. Here he acknowledges that the “charged term,” the “cultural component,” represents something “natural.” Just as Thor is the god of Thunder, and Minerva the goddess of Wisdom, Shard names IMO anthropomorphize some underlying natural phenomenon.

6. “[N]ot all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way.” 

Further confirmation that Brandon “ascribes personalities” to “fundamental laws of the universe.” Shards represent those primal forces, those “fundamental laws” like entropy and stasis. Their names are add-ons, the “cultural component.”

Brandon describes Honor’s primal force as “the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” The Stormfather says, “There are no foolish oaths. All are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren. The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice.” (OB, Chapter 4, Kindle p. 60.)

Voluntary adherence to rules that structure society IS a “mark of intelligence, free will, and choice.” Passion, emotion, and hate are NOT choices people make. They are primal appetites that drive people’s behaviors. Unrestrained, these appetites push out self-control and discipline and leave you with the mindless compulsions of Nergaoul and Ashertmarn. Foreshadowing Dalinar’s “Unity” moment, he tells Navani, “Control is important to me…You know how I was, what I became, when I was a man with no control.” (OB, Chapter 4, Kindle, p. 56.)

This suggests the “primal force” of the Odium Shard relates to these primal urges: lust, the need to conquer, overindulgence, or any other behavior that looks only to the person’s own needs without consideration for the needs of others: “I’m not to blame.” The Odium-filtered Singer Rhythms – ridicule, derision, spite – are anti-social behaviors that push people away or separate them into command and subservience. Hate divides.

Odium IMO breaks Connections between people to expose their bedrock behaviors. When Odium “takes their pain,” he severs the Connection between that person and the cause of their pain. These broken Connections leave the person numb, not feeling the restraints relationships with others bring. That exposes the person’s raw appetites, their primal urges, their “passions.”

That’s why I conclude Odium is the Shard of passion/emotion “sort of.” He gives his magic by breaking the Connections that make society possible. All he leaves are individual passions.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Confused

[Kaladin Zahel]

I'd be interested in hearing what you think the possible primal equivalent to passion/emotion is.

As it is, this post has me wanting to reevaluate/rename the known shards.

Thanks.

[IllNsickly he/him]

I feel like this was addressed In World and in WoB. 

Passion was/could be used in place of Odium.

or am I misremembering?

[Calderis he/him]

49 minutes ago, IllNsickly said:

I feel like this was addressed In World and in WoB. 

Passion was/could be used in place of Odium.

or am I misremembering?

In world the only person to call Odium Passion is Odium. 

In WoB, Brandon has mainly said "an argument can be made" And then he gave us this.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

 

The "fervor" line that @Confused uses in the OP is from me. I said this in discord. 

Quote

All together, the WoBs on Odium, from the truth of the dual meaning, to his inability to be honest to himself... Plus the rhythms and the way everyone else views him...

Passion is a justification. He's conflating fervor and passion because it's convenient

As well as a fantastic means of manipulating his followers

Here's the older wob that I referenced there. 

Quote

Millennium

Some dictionaries list two meanings for the word "odium": the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others. Do both of these apply to the Shard with that name?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

And the new rhythms are, as confused mentioned, mainly tinged by anger. 

Spite, derision, destruction, ridicule... 

The rhythms names are instinctively known by the Singers, and that is something external to Odium being filtered through his investiture. As I've argued before, if he were truly Passion, I would expect the new rhythms to show a much broader spectrum of emotions. 

As to the OP, I find this more plausible than most of the Passion arguments I've seen, but my main issue is still that Odium doesn't seem to leave his followers passionate towards anything. He leaves them numb and hollow. He consumes their emotions and leaves them drained... 

I can see what your saying though Confused, through his separation from all of the things that cause society and reducing people to they're base needs and feelings he is in a twisted way doing what he says... But I still think it's a justification. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Calderis

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

So basically Odium was Adonolasium's id before they split up.

[IllNsickly he/him]

AAAAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

So, Odium cannibalizes peoples Passions. Thereby providing self-justification in claiming himself as Passion.

@Calderis. Yes, I absolutely appreciate that now. (Hmm, no feeble attempts at self-justification here).

There isn’t any way to spin ‘Odium’ or ‘Odius’ or any derivatives in a positive way.

Damnation these life choices.