[OB] Dark Theory on Spheres

[Obnoxiousspren]

Right, so the other day I was considering the use of spheres and gemstones as money on Roshar. Yeah they are super useful for holding stormlight and giving off light so it makes sense that they would be used for money. But (and this is where the theory starts) where do those gemstones actually come from? We know from a recent WOB that Roshar specifically does not have plate tectonics. I'm not a geologist or nothing, but it seems like this would make it rare or even impossible for gemstones to be created naturally by underground pressure. In addition to this, we have never heard of a single person having the profession of a miner who would get those gems in the first place. 

Considering all of this, where do we know we can find gems on Roshar? Inside the bodies of certain creatures that inhabit the planet. In the early days of Roshar, before the coming of humans, the Parshman were probably the largest population of organisms that had gemhearts. What if one of the reasons the humans who came to Roshar started to try and conquer the world was because they figured out that they could get very valuable gems by cutting them out of the bodies of the indigenous people? This may have inspired a full scale slaughter and war of greed against the natives of the planet. What if the monetary spheres used by Rosharans are the cut up gemhearts of generations of Parshman?

[Lightspine]

Thankfully, this doesnt seem to be the case. The Listeners have gemhearts all of a specific type, and I don’t think its one of the gems used in currency. In fact, i have no idea what type of gem it is except that Venli mentions it is pearly white (i may have misremembered somebody else please confirm).

don’t chulls also have gemhearts? Additionally, the ability of these animals to grow gems seems to indicate that the minerals used to produce them are far from scarce. Perhaps they grow in giant caves or something.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Lightspine

[hypatia]

A little back-up:

OB, interlude 3, p.339

"The old songs spoke of days when humans had hacked apart listeners corpses, searching for gemhearts."

This was the reason for the taboo to touch bodies for the listeners.

[Leyrann]

There's a mention somewhere of animals that are specifically bred for their gemhearts.

As for singers, I believe they are assumed by humans (or were in old times, at least) to not have gemhearts. Indeed, this is where the taboo came from.

Additionally, it's mentioned somewhere in Oathbringer (I'm afraid I can't be more specific as I don't remember, but probably in a Venli interlude) that singer gemhearts are different from most gemhearts.

[ScarletSabre]

I believe Brandon has also confirmed that there are still mines and some gems underground, (Shallan originally wanted Jasnah's Soulcaster to make more mines and veins of ore and marble for her family after all) but nowhere near as much as there are in animals.

Animals have gemhearts, are bred for them, and the Parsh aren't used as a source for it... though probably mainly because the humans don't know that they have gemhearts. If I recall correctly the gemheart is pearly white and somewhat fused to the sternum to camoflauge it. A surgeon like Kaladin would probably be able to find one through dissection, but a run of the mill Alethi/human trying to hack one open in search of riches? Nope.

[RShara]

The majority of the gemstones they have are from great shells and the like, including some that are raised specifically for their gemhearts. There are a few gemstones that are obtained from mining, but not many.

This thread might interest you, I believe Brandon gave a nod of approval to it.

 

[Llarimar]

9 hours ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

We know from a recent WOB that Roshar specifically does not have plate tectonics. I'm not a geologist or nothing, but it seems like this would make it rare or even impossible for gemstones to be created naturally by underground pressure.

I think that there are ways for gems to be created at the surface through chemical reactions or water pressure.  I was looking around for information about this online and found THIS quote from UCBerkeley.  

Quote

Almost all gems are formed below the Earth's surface. 

...

In the following sections we will examine how gems form. We will start with examples at or near the Earth's surface and move down into the mantle. 

1. Formation from water near the Earth's surface

Water near the Earth's surface interacts with minerals and dissolves them. The ability of these solutions to maintain elements in solution varies with physical conditions. If the solution conditions change (for example if the solution cools or evaporates), minerals will precipitate. A similar, familiar processes is formation of salt crystals by evaporation of sea water.

 The mineral that forms is determined by what the dissolved elements are. If the water has interacted with silica-rich rocks (e.g., sandstone), silica-rich minerals will form:

• Silica (SiO2)-based minerals:  amethyst (quartz); agate ; and the formation of opal. Of these, only opal is non-crystalline (ordered blobs of gel less than a micron in diameter).

2.  Hydrothermal deposits

The formation of gems by hydrothermal processes is not dissimilar to formation of gems from water near the Earth's surface

 The solutions involve rain water and/or water derived from cooling magma bodies< Gems crystallize from solution when it encounters open spaces such as cracks. As a result, 'veins' of minerals fill preexisting cracks. 

Minerals such as beryl (e.g., emerald), tourmaline need unusual elements, and some of these, like beryllium (for beryl) or boron (for tourmaline) are derived from cooling molten rock (magma).  

So what they basically say is that gems can be formed at the surface or near the surface through water reacting with minerals in specific environments, or from cooling magma (although if there aren't plate tectonics on Roshar I'm not sure how there could be magma...).

I think that you're right, @Obnoxiousspren, about most gemstones on Roshar being farmed from creatures bodies - that makes the most sense.  But it's interesting to see that it's possible for them to form without plate tectonics - I wonder if Brandon researched that for the book.

1 hour ago, RShara said:

This thread might interest you, I believe Brandon gave a nod of approval to it.

 

Not to change the subject, but I've been wondering for awhile, how do you post thread boxes like this?  The only way I can figure out how to insert a thread link is by clicking the "Link" icon and inserting the URL, and then writing THIS THREAD in the Link text for people to click on.  I don't know to make it appear like a nice, sectioned square.

[RShara]

I just paste the link into the reply box and the thread link and box populate by themselves

 

The thread basically talks about how greatshells have died for millennia, their bodies getting covered over by crem. And that's where any mined gemstones come from.

[Llarimar]

19 minutes ago, RShara said:

I just paste the link into the reply box and the thread link and box populate by themselves

 

The thread basically talks about how greatshells have died for millennia, their bodies getting covered over by crem. And that's where any mined gemstones come from.

Thanks!

Also, I was looking at the thread you posted and it's very interesting.  I think it's still possible for gemstones to have formed at the surface naturally, but it makes more sense for all of them to have come from fossilized greatshells, just for the sake of consistency.  

Edited June 1, 2018 by Llarimar

[RShara]

9 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

Thanks!

Also, I was looking at the thread you posted and it's very interesting.  I think it's still possible for gemstones to have formed at the surface naturally, but it makes more sense for all of them to have come from fossilized greatshells, just for the sake of consistency.  

There's also the problem of timespan, though. Admittedly, we don't know how long it's been since Roshar was created, but it's only been about 10-15k years since the Shattering, max. Sapphires, rubies, diamonds, emeralds, heliodor, at least, take millions of years. Topaz, zircon(of decent sizes), garnet, usually require magma. Even Smokestone(quartz)/amethyst need very high temperatures and pressure that gradually eases off, although they grow relatively quickly, compared to the others.

[Calderis]

And just for the record, we have seen miners.

One of Szeth's masters was a miner who made a circuitous route in Bavland through different mining towns. He specifically mentioned using Szeth to work and collecting his wages. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Calderis

[Obnoxiousspren]

Well, I'm glad I posted this! I can see now that I definitely missed some details that would have answered my questions pretty quickly haha. Thanks guys!

[Spoolofwhool]

Yeah, they definitely mine rock for metal in some places. Remember in the first Rysn interlude in WoK. They traded soulcast metal to the Shin, who specifically wanted metal which had not been mined from stone.  

Quote

“Not a bit of it was mined,” Vstim said. “No rocks were broken or smelted to get this metal, Thresh. It was Soulcast from shells, bark, or branches. I have a document sealed by five separate Thaylen notaries attesting to it.”

- Way of Kings, I-4