Was Pattern dead like Sly or lockedup?

[Crysanja]

we know that there was interaction between Pattern and Shallan in her childhood.

so i wonder what happend to Pattern.

 

was he the glowing Monster locked in the save?

maybe Shallans brothers let him out by accident in the early WoR timeframe?

 

we didnt see Pattern at all in tWoK(in the physical realm), so why did he come back so late? - was he dead?

 

 

maybe accepting, living in truth with youreselfe, is an requirement for Shallans order?

maybe Shallan killed Pattern, because she forgot. choose to forget?

 

 

[WitSpren]

The way I read the chapters, she was generating "light" glimmers/displays that she would play with.     Kind of like Kal probably enhancing his fighting ability with Stormlight long before he "connected" with Syl.    In a world where Fearspren, Windspren, Painspren +++++++++ are always poping up around people, it is/would be very difficult to actually notice a particulay Spren that is "yours" versus just another wounderful magical thing that pops up in the world for reasons that you never really understand. 

 

Point in fact, Kal never really paid any attention to Syl, until she actually started talking directly to him.     Even then, it took a couple times before he realized it was something unusual.     Then take that and apply it to a 10-- year old girl & it would be even harder for them to figure out that something unusual was happening.

 

Then at 10 she Kills he mother & deliberately blocks all the memories out.

 

The monster in the Safe was her Shardknife that she killed her mother with.     Her father took it away & locked it up - & it turned to "mist" but she always thought it was in the Safe, for years after.

[Moogle]

Syl was never dead. This much is clear from the fact that she was speaking with the Stormfather, who was refusing to allow her to return to Kaladin. Kaladin pushed her away, back into the Cognitive, much like Shallan did with Pattern.

[Kurkistan]

Brandon has talked about how Pattern "withdrew" after Shallan started getting all lie-to-herself. We also have some more direct WoB:

 

Source:

Q: If Pattern hadn't been fully pulled into the physical realm, how did Shallan use his shardblade form six years ago?

Brandon: He had been much closer to Shallan in the past, and Shallan almost gave up her oaths/ideals, but she did not completely reject him the way Kaladin had done to Syl.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Kurkistan

[name_here]

Syl was never dead. This much is clear from the fact that she was speaking with the Stormfather, who was refusing to allow her to return to Kaladin. Kaladin pushed her away, back into the Cognitive, much like Shallan did with Pattern.

 

Actually, Syl was as dead as spren get.

 

See, spren are essentially entities created by humans ascribing personalities to forces or phenomenons. Syl is honorspren, so she can't really die unless the very concept of honor is utterly destroyed. When Kaladin broke his oaths, it "killed" her, but that's not quite the same as killing a human. One of the spren says that breaking a spren is like breaking a rock; it's in smaller pieces but not really different.

[Moogle]

Actually, Syl was as dead as spren get.

 

See, spren are essentially entities created by humans ascribing personalities to forces or phenomenons. Syl is honorspren, so she can't really die unless the very concept of honor is utterly destroyed. When Kaladin broke his oaths, it "killed" her, but that's not quite the same as killing a human. One of the spren says that breaking a spren is like breaking a rock; it's in smaller pieces but not really different.

 

Can you provide a source for that? Syl was very clearly in Shadesmar and arguing with the Stormfather before Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal, when his oaths were ostensibly broken. Given what happened with Pattern, it seems likely that a Knight betraying their oaths just sends the spren back into the Cognitive Realm, unless the Knight is currently using them as a Blade, which traps them there forever. (Likely because they're fully in the Physical as a Blade.)

[DiamondMind]

Can you provide a source for that? Syl was very clearly in Shadesmar and arguing with the Stormfather before Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal, when his oaths were ostensibly broken. Given what happened with Pattern, it seems likely that a Knight betraying their oaths just sends the spren back into the Cognitive Realm, unless the Knight is currently using them as a Blade, which traps them there forever. (Likely because they're fully in the Physical as a Blade.)

 

There probably isn't more of a source than the Stormfather saying she died. Why would he be so angry/upset if she just returned to the Cognitive Realm, essentially by his side?

 

I think she was reformed (resurrected? rejuvenated?) as soon as Kaladin started following the Oaths again. This is not when he spoke the Third Ideal, but before, when he decided to protect Elhokar. I surmise that the Stormfather was holding her back from returning even then, but could not continue to do so once Kaladin spoke the Words.

[Moogle]

There probably isn't more of a source than the Stormfather saying she died. Why would he be so angry/upset if she just returned to the Cognitive Realm, essentially by his side?

 

This is the same Stormfather that tried to murder Dalinar, right? The one Syl described as 'broken'? I was under the assumption that the Stormfather was lying to Kaladin so he wouldn't try to get Syl back.

 

If the Stormfather is capable of attempting to murder, I see no reason why he'd stick to the truth. He's clearly not an honorspren, which is hilarious given that he's humanity's perceptions of Honor/the Almighty given a sort of life.

 

Edit: Here's the Stormfather blatantly lying:

 

“Please!” Kaladin screamed. “How can I fix it? What can I do?”

IT CANNOT BE FIXED. SHE IS BROKEN. YOU ARE LIKE THE ONES WHO CAME BEFORE, THE ONES WHO KILLED SO MANY OF THOSE I LOVE. FAREWELL, SON OF HONOR. YOU WILL NOT RIDE MY WINDS AGAIN.

 

Obviously, it was fixed, so the Stormfather is lying here. Or mistaken, but that's so unlikely as to be ridiculous.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Moogle

[DiamondMind]

This is the same Stormfather that tried to murder Dalinar, right? The one Syl described as 'broken'? I was under the assumption that the Stormfather was lying to Kaladin so he wouldn't try to get Syl back.

 

If the Stormfather is capable of attempting to murder, I see no reason why he'd stick to the truth. He's clearly not an honorspren, which is hilarious given that he's humanity's perceptions of Honor/the Almighty given a sort of life.

 

Edit: Here's the Stormfather blatantly lying:

 

Obviously, it was fixed, so the Stormfather is lying here. Or mistaken, but that's so unlikely as to be ridiculous.

 

You're right, but that is the only thing I could think of. On the other hand, you have to admit that Syl speaking with the Stormfather is not proof of her never dying in the first place. So I think we're stuck without a WoB.

[Moogle]

You're right, but that is the only thing I could think of. On the other hand, you have to admit that Syl speaking with the Stormfather is not proof of her never dying in the first place. So I think we're stuck without a WoB.

 

I agree that it's not proof, but why would she be demanding the Stormfather let her come back? Kaladin hadn't revived his oaths at that point, so I don't see how she could have been resurrected if she was dead. I think it's strong evidence, and Syl never outright says she was dead. She says "I was only as dead as your oaths", and Kaladin never really gave those up, I'd argue.

[DiamondMind]

I agree that it's not proof, but why would she be demanding the Stormfather let her come back? Kaladin hadn't revived his oaths at that point, so I don't see how she could have been resurrected if she was dead. I think it's strong evidence, and Syl never outright says she was dead. She says "I was only as dead as your oaths", and Kaladin never really gave those up, I'd argue.

 

This is my contention; Kaladin did revive his oaths, and Syl was restored, as soon as he started following them again by protecting Elhokar. He abandoned them but then returned. If Syl hadn't been held back by the Stormfather, she wouldn't have had to wait until he spoke the Third Ideal.

 

There's no proof one way or the other whether or not she died, so we'll have to agree to disagree. 

[Moogle]

This is my contention; Kaladin did revive his oaths, and Syl was restored, as soon as he started following them again by protecting Elhokar. He abandoned them but then returned. If Syl hadn't been held back by the Stormfather, she wouldn't have had to wait until he spoke the Third Ideal.

 

There's no proof one way or the other whether or not she died, so we'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

To be clear, your position is that Kaladin began following his oaths again, and this restored Syl, but she ended up in the Cognitive Realm where the Stormfather could hold her back? Why did she end up in the Cognitive and not the Physical, which is where she ostensibly died?

 

I'm not really feeling confident of anything in this discussion anymore, so I think we will have to agree to disagree as you say. Hopefully there's a WoB at some point on what happened to Syl.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Moogle

[RShara]

Syl says "I was only as dead as your oaths."

 

So it sounds like she was really dead until he started following his oaths again, but she was prevented from going back to him until he spoke the Third Ideal.

[Moogle]

Sorry to revive this topic, but I just reread this:

 

“That was very nicely done,” she said. “Perhaps I’ll keep you around this time.”

“Thank you.”

“You almost killed me, you realize.”

“I realize. I thought I had.”

“And?”

“And . . . um . . . you are intelligent and articulate?”

 

Besides being a lovely adorable exchange, Syl says Kaladin almost killed her (hence her scream?). He didn't actually kill her.

[PudgyNinja]

Obviously, spren don't experience death the same way that humans do. The spren trapped in Shardblades, for example, seem to be about as dead as you can get for a spren, yet they still exist. They scream, to those who can hear them. But they can't be brought back to full capacity. Or at least, nobody has been able to yet, that we know of.

 

Syl was, apparently, in a similar state to those Spren, at least for a while. But as Kaladin renewed his oaths, she was restored. The Shardblade spren largely don't have that option, as those they bonded with are long dead.

 

Pattern doesn't seem to have reached that same level of "deadness" for lack of a better word.  He pulled back, but was not gone.

Edited March 17, 2014 by PudgyNinja

[Moogle]

Syl was, apparently, in a similar state to those Spren, at least for a while. But as Kaladin renewed his oaths, she was restored. The Shardblade spren largely don't have that option, as those they bonded with are long dead.

 

But where's the evidence? Where does Syl say she was stuck screaming? It seems like she almost died, but ended up back in Shadesmar when the bond broke, much like Shallan pushed Pattern back there. If Syl hadn't just went back to the Cognitive without dying, why would she be arguing with the Stormfather to let her free? If she was dead and revived, she would have stayed in the Physical.

[Adunsavior]

The thing with Syl actually bothered me, why did she "die" at the moment when Kal fell into the chasm? If it is about broken oaths, she should have died much earlier on.

 

Yet, when Kal charged to the broken bridge, in attempt to protect Dalinar, Kal is protecting; when Kal escorted Shallan through the chasm, Kal is protecting; when Kal tried to use himself as a decoy for Shallan to get away, that is noble sacrifice and protecting.

 

Why didn't Syl came back then?

 

Unless Syl's "dying" during the fall into the chasm is Syl using all her remaining strength, once depleted, then Syl "dies"

[deddinty]

The thing with Syl actually bothered me, why did she "die" at the moment when Kal fell into the chasm? If it is about broken oaths, she should have died much earlier on.

 

Yet, when Kal charged to the broken bridge, in attempt to protect Dalinar, Kal is protecting; when Kal escorted Shallan through the chasm, Kal is protecting; when Kal tried to use himself as a decoy for Shallan to get away, that is noble sacrifice and protecting.

 

Why didn't Syl came back then?

 

Unless Syl's "dying" during the fall into the chasm is Syl using all her remaining strength, once depleted, then Syl "dies"

 

To me it was partially because Kaladin was only focused on saving himself as he fell.  Perhaps if he'd been focused more on saving and protecting others it would have been easier. Beyond that, we know his problem was only caring about protecting for selfish reasons.  I could see your last line being plausible as well, that Syl did something to allow Kaladin that last breath of stormlight, and in doing so violated something that locked her away from Kaladin. 

[Grimm]

Syl wasn't quite in the same state as the other spren that have been trapped. She never was trapped, rather, she was booted back to the cognitive realm (pushed more towards her natural state as we see happening over chapters when Kal starts going against his oaths). She screams because she knows she is losing her conscioussness and her connection to Kal. We can assume this could be emotional pain, not physical? Maybe both. Either way, she lost a part of herself and returned to a semi-dormant state until Kal started to believe in his oaths again. Having been such a small time period,and the fact they bonded, this most likely enabled Syl to remember everything, as proved by her coming back and their conversation after Szeth which shows she remembers everything.

So, she never died, she just lost a part of herself and 'faded' until Kal believed in his oaths again.

The shardblades must be spren who's oaths were broken simultaneously during the recreance. Remember somewhere we are told of an item Taravangian must hold onto or something, which holds the key to destroying the radiants if need be. This must have been the item that intitally was used at the recreance and caused all the spren to become trapped/killed.

[wolveryne]

 

 

The thing with Syl actually bothered me, why did she "die" at the moment when Kal fell into the chasm? If it is about broken oaths, she should have died much earlier on.

 

Yet, when Kal charged to the broken bridge, in attempt to protect Dalinar, Kal is protecting; when Kal escorted Shallan through the chasm, Kal is protecting; when Kal tried to use himself as a decoy for Shallan to get away, that is noble sacrifice and protecting.

 

Why didn't Syl came back then?

 

Unless Syl's "dying" during the fall into the chasm is Syl using all her remaining strength, once depleted, then Syl "dies"

 

Syl started "dieing" when Kaladin made his challenge against Amaram, or shortly thereafter, and lost more and more of her intelligence as he went further against his oaths. When he was in prison she started acting more like a generic windspren. Then she started leaving him to fly around with the other windspren, and she was pushed completely into the Cognitive Realm as he selfishly tried to force stomlight into himself.

 

At least thats how I understand it.

[PudgyNinja]

But where's the evidence? Where does Syl say she was stuck screaming? It seems like she almost died, but ended up back in Shadesmar when the bond broke, much like Shallan pushed Pattern back there. If Syl hadn't just went back to the Cognitive without dying, why would she be arguing with the Stormfather to let her free? If she was dead and revived, she would have stayed in the Physical.

 

There's no evidence of anything here.  It's all speculation.  I don't think Syl was screaming.  After all, she wasn't trapped in a Shardblade.  

 

By the time Syl is arguing with the Stormfather, Kaladin has already taken up his oath again, by deciding to protect Elkohar.

[AyeJay]

As to why she didn't come back when Kaladin was protecting Shallan in the chasms, that didn't fulfill the third ideal. He disliked Shallan before, but never outright hated her. 

[Voidsinger]

I think she really thought that pattern was the Soul of her mother. My english is not that good but I thought i read something like that at the Point when her father wanted to hit her. So she realized that pattern was not her mothers Soul when jasnah (dont know how the Name is spelled i heard to the audiobook) knew of this creatures as spren.
It also makes sense because the Moment she first met with pattern was when she killed her mother.
Syl didnt die this is said also she just lost her consciousness, when kaldin fell into the chasm cause he wasnt thinking about the others and how to rescue them but thinking about his own importance and that a big godlike Person like him cant die that inglorious way. I mean syl said he is the only Person on Roshar who attracted a honour spren i think that requires honorable thinking even when youre near death ( you know "I cant die I am the storm" and things like that.