*Spoliers* Dalinar's Blade

[junior]

Why do we assume it is a different blade just because of description? Maybe his honorblade was downgraded to normal shardblade during the trip? Not saying that is likely but if something about the story is wrong I'm just trying to figure out what.

 

 

There are a few reasons

 

 

1.)  When Dalinar last touches the blade (right before he severs the bond with it), he hears it screaming.  Ergo, there's a dead spren in the blade.

2.)  According to Syl, Honorblades were given directly by Honor.  Shardblades came about when spren attempted to imitate Honorblades.  Given that the source is Syl, I think we can safely view this bit of information as accurate.  This isn't something that she's likely to lie or joke about (and doing so would arguably be dishonorable, which goes against her very nature).

3.)  So according to point #2, an Honorblade can't become a Shardblade because the latter is a spren (living or dead), while the former doesn't appear to be so.

4.)  Kaladin doesn't hear any screams when he handles Szeth's Honorblade, which once again reinforces the idea that Honorblades aren't formed from spren (unlike the shardblade that Dalinar was using).

 

And one more item worth noting - who would be in a position to "downgrade" Talan's blade?  Honor is presumably the only one who would even have that capability if it ever existed to begin with, and he's shattered.

 

 

[Howl of the Sun he/him]

The best way to find out for sure about Dalinar's blade would be to go back and find out if it's described as having a gem in it. If so, then we can be reasonably certain that it's not Taln's honorblade. Sadly, the ending of TWoK doesn't mention whether or not the blade has a gem.

I don't have the exact quote from Brandon Sanderson on hand but I'm pretty sure he said that one cannot bond an Honor Blade. That raises the question how did Szeth's relationship with his Honor blade work? Not sure!

[junior]

I don't have the exact quote from Brandon Sanderson on hand but I'm pretty sure he said that one cannot bond an Honor Blade. That raises the question how did Szeth's relationship with his Honor blade work? Not sure!

 

I suspect that "giving" a blade to someone essentially grants ownership of it for all intents and purposes.  The only way around that is to kill the current holder, as Kaladin does to Szeth.

[Frostlander]

 

Q:  At the very end of WoR, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him.  Should that particular Blade have been safe??

A:  No it should not have.  It's a clue that something has happened.  There are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

 

Q:  Did Hoid switch out the blades?

A:  Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

 

There's a part of this exchange that keeps striking me as strange. It's followed by the question of whether Hoid switched the blades, and that seems to have the effect of combining the two sets of questions. There are clues that something has "happened." Is that bigger than blade-switching? The next sentence stating that there are other clues that suggest we've been fed false information seems big.

 

The only thing that I can think of right now is that as the Everstorm approaches, Kaladin, Eshonai, and Dalinar all think it is strange that Stormfather speaks to them. Kaladin and Dalinar note that they had only heard him in visions and dreams. Eshonai says that hearing him speak is something from songs.

 

This new, more available, more talkative Stormfather bonds Dalinar. Syl says that Stormfather is broken in chapter 86 of WoR, and we know that the “Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.” I know tWoK also says Odium reigns, but I'm starting to wonder if it was such a good idea to bond Stormfather. Not sure where this might go, but I think at least the first set of Q&A is important.

[Swimmingly he/him]

What if Hoid didn't switch out the blades...he just gave Taln another?

[junior]

There's a part of this exchange that keeps striking me as strange. It's followed by the question of whether Hoid switched the blades, and that seems to have the effect of combining the two sets of questions. There are clues that something has "happened." Is that bigger than blade-switching? The next sentence stating that there are other clues that suggest we've been fed false information seems big.

 

The only thing that I can think of right now is that as the Everstorm approaches, Kaladin, Eshonai, and Dalinar all think it is strange that Stormfather speaks to them. Kaladin and Dalinar note that they had only heard him in visions and dreams. Eshonai says that hearing him speak is something from songs.

 

This new, more available, more talkative Stormfather bonds Dalinar. Syl says that Stormfather is broken in chapter 86 of WoR, and we know that the “Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.” I know tWoK also says Odium reigns, but I'm starting to wonder if it was such a good idea to bond Stormfather. Not sure where this might go, but I think at least the first set of Q&A is important.

 

Don't forget that Dalinar finds something "wrong" with the blade even before his end of the book chat with the Stormfather.  It's noted the first time that he uses it - i.e. during the three-way conversation between himself, Amaram, and Kaladin.

[Numb]

I'm sure I remember reading a WoB where he said that what Szeth was doing with the blade is different to what a shadeblade does in terms of Kaladin healing wounds from Szeth. This may have implications on what happened with Talns blade but I can't really figure out why kaladin is able to heal his wounds when supposedly he shouldn't be able to do so from a Shadeblade cut. I'll have to find the WoB after dinner.

[RShara she/her]

He was able to heal his wounds with lots of Stormlight, which has healing properties.  Since Szeth can't take in Stormlight naturally, he's less efficient at it and his Blade eats up a lot of it, so he isn't able to force it through the dead limb to heal it.

 

I imagine it has to do with the way his sDNA interacts with the Investiture.

[Tranquil]

 

Q:  At the very end of WoR, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him.  Should that particular Blade have been safe??

A:  No it should not have.  It's a clue that something has happened.  There are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

 

Q:  Did Hoid switch out the blades?

A:  Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

 

We are making a big assumption about Taln and his blade.

 

We are all assuming that the man that made his way to the Shattered Plains in WOR is the same man as the one who came to Kholinar at the end of WOK.

[Numb]

He was able to heal his wounds with lots of Stormlight, which has healing properties.  Since Szeth can't take in Stormlight naturally, he's less efficient at it and his Blade eats up a lot of it, so he isn't able to force it through the dead limb to heal it.

 

I imagine it has to do with the way his sDNA interacts with the Investiture.

 

 

This is the question I was thinking of:

 

Q: What about Kaladin getting sliced with a Shardblade

A: That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of what is going on with his blade. Szeth says you can’t heal a shardblade hit. Very subtle but big differences between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does. (RAFO’s the honorblade question).

.

 

It doesn't really say if Szeth is just incorrect about not being able to heal a shardblade since we know Hoid is able to heal from this:

 

Q: What if Hoid got cut by a shard blade?

A: The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul

 

So does this mean that Stormlight is able to heal the soul or that Szeth doesn't actually cut the soul when he used that Honorblade? Honestly I'm confused.

[Sweetheart]

Sorry i'm new here but couldn't it be the shardsblade that belonged to Relis? I think it is Adolin who says he is just glad that Dalinar "bonded that madman's blade" When Kaladin caught it Relis went crazy and left screaming. Could Dalinar not had other plans for the Honorblade and used one of the newly acquired shardblades to bond?

Edited March 19, 2014 by Sweetheart

[RShara she/her]

This is the question I was thinking of:

 

I always thought that referred to Szeth surgebinding due to the Honorblade, and Kaladin Surgebinding through the Nahel bond.

[Zenith]

We are making a big assumption about Taln and his blade.

 

We are all assuming that the man that made his way to the Shattered Plains in WOR is the same man as the one who came to Kholinar at the end of WOK.

There's an interesting theory...

What if Taln didn't go mad? Taln quickly found that this society would not be receptive to a Herald returning, and switched out with someone "mad", who was willing to take his place. He handed the guy a shardblade, and sent him off to the warcamps.

Of course, there are a few issues with this, namely that Amaram believes the madman is Taln (although, how would he know for sure), the madman recognizes Shallan as a radiant (IIRC), and that the madman caught a dart that was fired towards him. That shows mind-numbingly good reflexes, maybe even inhumanly good reflexes, and chances are those reflexes came from Stormlight, or Heralds just being crazy awesome.

[Numb]

I always thought that referred to Szeth surgebinding due to the Honorblade, and Kaladin Surgebinding through the Nahel bond.

 

It's possible, just don't see why he would mention that with respect to Kaladin's injuries via shardblade.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Numb

[theRealHoid]

Whenever I think about Taln and the blade Dalinar had at the end of WoR, I remember back to something that Argent said in this thread:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5588-the-last-herald/#entry88592

 

 

 

Every time - and I mean every time - Brandon has answered a question somehow related to the epilogue, he has used something along the lines of "someone who claims to be a Herald" instead of Taln's name. I still think that it is him we see materializing outside Kholinar, but I am slightly bothered by how Brandon never refers to him directly by name and/or title.

 

Given what we know about Honorblades and their differences with Shardblades, is it possible that the Taln we've see isn't really Taln at all, but just a dude with a Shardblade?

[Tranquil]

There's an interesting theory...

What if Taln didn't go mad? Taln quickly found that this society would not be receptive to a Herald returning, and switched out with someone "mad", who was willing to take his place. He handed the guy a shardblade, and sent him off to the warcamps.

Of course, there are a few issues with this, namely that Amaram believes the madman is Taln (although, how would he know for sure), the madman recognizes Shallan as a radiant (IIRC), and that the madman caught a dart that was fired towards him. That shows mind-numbingly good reflexes, maybe even inhumanly good reflexes, and chances are those reflexes came from Stormlight, or Heralds just being crazy awesome.

 

 

The Honorblade could be with someone in Kholinar and Taln is truly mad. Or Odium has planted someone to act like they are a Herald and even made them to think he is a Herald.

[Moogle]

I really think we actually saw Taln. I think it would be uncommon knowledge that the Radiants were formed by edict of Ishar (very few people would have read Words of Radiance), so the madman mentioning them is good evidence. Plus, there's his PoV and everything.

 

Having thought on things, I think the easiest explanation is that Taln still has his Honorblade. Wit 'knows' he has to be places (but not why), and he had to meet Taln. I am leaning towards the reason being he had to be there was to save Taln by placing a decoy Blade. If he didn't, we need to find a reason why Wit had to be there.

 

A Herald without an Honorblade seems like a sad thing to me, though I'm not sure how much of their abilities was innate. Shallash seems to think she could take a Shardbearer...

Edited March 19, 2014 by Moogle

[theRealHoid]

Taln's PoV doesn't really give us much.  His inner dialog is pretty much all about what it was like in Damnation.  His words are Heraldish, yes, but as  Bordin points out, he keeps saying them over and over like a broken record.  And the words themselves seem to have an "automated" quality to them that does not relate to the current age such as teaching men to soulcast bronze because the stone tools they have will be useless.  By tools, I'm taking that to mean weapons to use.  But doesn't modern Roshar already have metal weaponry as well as Shard Blades?

 

What I'm getting at is his pov sounds like someone, or something, that has been instilled with what Taln would say on a Return.  And with 4500 years worth of torture in Damnation, someone could have extracted this stuff out of him.  Of course, I wouldn't even be considering this a possibility if it weren't for the quote I mentioned combined with the other WoB regarding something being very wrong with the story we've been told.  It just screams that we shouldn't be taking what we've seen at face value.  

[Nero Vance he/him]

It seems like Hoid treats magic systems like they are Pokemon, so it would greatly surprise me if he didn't try taking the Honorblade. I'm not even sure if he has an endgame for all that or if he's just a hoarder. Like maybe Hoid sees a magic system and he's like "Oh boy, that's neat. I'm taking this baby home!"

[Jeiel he/him]

@those doubting Taln's identity:

 

Hoid being there upon Taln's arrival in Kholinar back in WoK is proof enough for me.

[junior]

Taln's PoV doesn't really give us much.  His inner dialog is pretty much all about what it was like in Damnation.  His words are Heraldish, yes, but as  Bordin points out, he keeps saying them over and over like a broken record.  And the words themselves seem to have an "automated" quality to them that does not relate to the current age such as teaching men to soulcast bronze because the stone tools they have will be useless.  By tools, I'm taking that to mean weapons to use.  But doesn't modern Roshar already have metal weaponry as well as Shard Blades?

 

What I'm getting at is his pov sounds like someone, or something, that has been instilled with what Taln would say on a Return.  And with 4500 years worth of torture in Damnation, someone could have extracted this stuff out of him.  Of course, I wouldn't even be considering this a possibility if it weren't for the quote I mentioned combined with the other WoB regarding something being very wrong with the story we've been told.  It just screams that we shouldn't be taking what we've seen at face value.  

 

I think that in the past, the Desolations came much more frequently.  As a result, humanity didn't really have a chance to progress between assaults by the voidbringers.  Bronze weapons would be a big deal for these people.  Dalinar touches on this a bit when describing the visions to Navani in WotK.  Ergo, the likely conclusion to be drawn is that Talan's mental instability is causing him to fall back on what he repeated frequently in the past without regard to how appropriate such comments are for the current situation.

 

Also, sending a fake, insane Taln to the Alethi seems rather pointless.  If you're going to do something like that, it would seem to make more sense to send a lucid fake.

 

While I don't doubt that there's a trick going on here, I'm pretty confident that Taln himself is exactly what he appears to be.

[name_here]

His rambling sounds like he's following their standard script for arriving in preparation for a Desolation. During the prologue, the non-Radiants had stone and bronze, with the bronze presumably being a Herald-granted uplift. Also, it's worth pointing out that his only known break from the script is giving his name and title when asked who he is. Plus, while indoors in a room kept dark, he manages to catch darts. That's pretty superhuman, and unless he can hold Stormlight for months there's no way he was infused.

 

I guess it's possible Moelach has bonded to someone and driven them totally nuts, but that seems pretty unlikely and I doubt he'd sit out the Everstorm entirely.

[RShara she/her]

Brandon seems to be hinting that Taln MAY not be who we think he is.......whaaaat?  Now I don't know what to think!

 

Q: 12. Are all the heralds aware that Taln is back?

 

A: If that person actually IS Taln. I'm not saying he's not, but he may not be who you would think he is.

[Moogle]

Brandon seems to be hinting that Taln MAY not be who we think he is.......whaaaat?  Now I don't know what to think!

 

Q: 12. Are all the heralds aware that Taln is back?

 

A: If that person actually IS Taln. I'm not saying he's not, but he may not be who you would think he is.

 

This saves the lighteye theory! Taln is not actually darkeyed! He can be super lighteyed like Shallash.

 

Or... not? I'm very confused. If it's not a Herald, how did the madman become a ninja and catch darts from midair?

 

The man obviously had an Honorblade. It did not disappear when he dropped it, which we now know is a trait of Honorblades. They have to be specifically willed to disappear. Ugh. Brandon is a terrible person and should release book 3 yesterday so we can get some sort of explanation.

[Khmauv he/him]

Crazy thought here. What if there is something similar to the spren crossing into the physical relm happening here? He is not quite all there yet, but over time will regain his mental aptitude.

 

or...

 

We don't even know if the Heralds are Human, splinters if Honor, or something else entirely. But they do live a really long time. Each of them have some "intent"... I'm just sayin'...

 

EDIT: Clarification

Edited March 20, 2014 by Khmauv