[OB] How The Radiants Will Win

[Stormrunner1730]

So this is more just me rambling than any theory.  This might be kind of obvious/stated before, but the Radiants ultimately have to win because of their Oaths.  They have to win because they've been persevering through their personal issues and upholding their Oaths.  Odium will have to lose for opposite reasons.  For example, Sanderson will ultimately not have Moash/Vyre be successful since he took the "easy way out".  Sanderson will want an ending that ultimately sheds a positive light on being the person you say you are (walking the walk), and pushing through your own issues to achieve this.  Again, this probably seems obvious to alot of people, but does it make sense?  

[Barbarian AL he/him]

Sure, though, I doubt it will be clean. Take Mistborn, first Era.

Spoiler

Ruin was ultimately defeated, the days of ash are at an end. Humanity however, came to the point of near extinction. So many died.

 My point is, I think it will be bittersweet. Maybe Odium will crumble, the cost being the destruction of the Radients and their Spren. I do think the Radiants will eventually break their oaths again too. Sanderson, although tame with many things in his writing, was never the type of writer that shies away from the whole concept of "A heavy price must be paid for victory'. I think he wants to write uplifting endings, just not in that old fashion 'happily ever after' kinda way, kolo?    

So ya I agree. It won't be all clean though is what I say.

[Diomedes]

5 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

Sanderson will want an ending that ultimately sheds a positive light on being the person you say you are (walking the walk), and pushing through your own issues to achieve this.  Again, this probably seems obvious to alot of people, but does it make sense?

There is some evidence that team Honour will lose the battle for Roshar. Consider the story Hoid told Kaladin in th prison in WoR. The runner ran well but ultimatly could not outrun the storm and died. But it did not matter he died because he ran well. I think the end of the series will be similar. Odium will win but his victory will be meaningless.   

 

[Barbarian AL he/him]

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

There is some evidence that team Honour will lose the battle for Roshar. Consider the story Hoid told Kaladin in th prison in WoR. The runner ran well but ultimatly could not outrun the storm and died. But it did not matter he died because he ran well. I think the end of the series will be similar. Odium will win but his victory will be meaningless.   

 

It would actually be refreshing if that happens. I never considered that the anecdote could be prophetic in anyway, interesting.

[Stormrunner1730]

5 hours ago, Diomedes said:

There is some evidence that team Honour will lose the battle for Roshar. Consider the story Hoid told Kaladin in th prison in WoR. The runner ran well but ultimatly could not outrun the storm and died. But it did not matter he died because he ran well. I think the end of the series will be similar. Odium will win but his victory will be meaningless.   

 

Oooh that would make sense.  @Barbarian AL, what you said also makes sense.  I'm sure the ending will not be cookie-cutter (that would be boring and very un-Sanderson-like).  It would be interesting int Team Radiant lost (per Hoid's WoR story).  I'm just trying to parce out the larger point about humanity that Sanderson will try to make with the ending.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Radiants wont win.

WOB that we've already seen how Stormlight will end by the end of TWoK and/or WOR.

"You already know how the Storlight Archive will end".

We have not seen anyone winning. What we have seen is Odium obliterating the planet. Let's assume the good guys save the day at the last minute. Is that interesting or unique? Would Brandon want to do the same old story again? Nah. This story is about refugees, land possession, and cultural diffusion. Whats the most interesting ending? The interesting ending is not the good guys save the day and the humans hug the Singers. No. Us returning to The Girl Who Looked Up is the most interesting ending. 

Likely Ending:
Roshar is destroyed in Book 5, and Book 6 features the sentient races fleeing to another planet and living as refugees. We have seen the Alethi as dominant, and now as losing control; imagine the back 5 novels as surgebinder, people famous for ruining worlds, look for refugee rights on Nathalis. We need to see a world go down, we need to see a shard shattering, and we need to see how cultures worldhop. We will get these things. 

Stormlight has hinted at the world of Nalthis to non-cosmere readers. Why? So that we are okay with the idea of Roharian's fleeing there. We also have Vashar as a guide for the nobility. We also need to explain why Azure was included in the story. Sure, we get the role, but she only confuses a reader of the series (if they are not Cosmere aware). Azure and Vasher need a payoff, and seeing Nalthis would be such a payoff.

Warbreaker as prequel makes a lot more sense if you assume the back books might be set there. 

Also, we know that the people of Roshar will eventually leave the planet. Recall how the people of the Iri believe that there will be many great migrations, and that they will need to migrate from Roshar some day? This entire series has been about transient populations. The ending, of Arc 1 ending, should reflect this.

Edit: They don't need to leave to Nalthis, but they should go somewhere. 
Edit: Nathalis -> Nalthis

Edited May 9, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Radiants wont win.

WOB that we've already seen how Stormlight will end by the end of TWoK and/or WOR.

"You already know how the Storlight Archive will end".

We have not seen anyone winning. What we have seen is Odium obliterating the Planet. Let's assume the good guys save the day at the last minute. Is that interesting or unique? Would Brandon want to do the same old story again? Nah. This story is about refugees, land possession, and cultural diffusion. Whats the most interesting ending? The interesting ending is not the good guys save the day and the humans hug the Singers. No. Us returning to The Girl Who Looked Up is the most interesting ending. 

Likely Ending:
Roshar is destroyed in Book 5, and Book 6 features the sentient races fleeing to another planet and living as refugees. We have seen the Alethi as dominant, and now as losing control; imagine the back 5 novels as surgebinder, people famous for ruining worlds, look for refugee rights on Nathalis. We need to see a world go down, we need to see a shard shattering, and we need to see how cultures worldhop. We will get these things. 

Stormlight has hinted at the world of Nathalis to non-cosmere readers. Why? So that we are okay with the idea of Roharian's fleeing there. We also have Vashar as a guide for the nobility. We also need to explaing why Azure was included in the story. Sure, we get the role, but she only confuses a reader of the series (if they are not COsmere aware). Azure and Vasher need a payoff, and seeing Nathalis would be such a payoff.

Warbreaker as prequel makes a lot more sense if you assume the back books might be set there. 

Also, we know that the people of Roshar will eventually leave the planet. Recall how the people of the Iri believe that there will be many great migrations, and that they will need to migrate from Roshar some day? This entire series has been about transient populations. The ending, of Arc 1 ending, should reflect this.

(It's Nalthis, not Nathalis)

I think this is an intruiging idea, though I'm not entirely sure to what degree Brandon will be willing to go there, as he intents every story to be readable without having to read anything else, so you should be able to understand Stormlight Archive without having read Warbreaker. I could see this happening if they move to Nalthis the last thing of book 5 however, and then by book 6 a few years have passed and it's just the new world now, which has (obviously) been changed so heavily by the Rosharans coming that knowledge from Warbreaker is barely relevant anyways.

Another problem would be that, if Roshar is destroyed, the Surgebinders no longer have access to the Surges, as they no longer have Stormlight. On the other hand, Breath could potentially fuel that, though it will eventually run out. The only way I can see to overcome this is if my theory is correct that Surgebinding is something that is not orignally limited to Stormlight, but has been limited to that by Honor, though this would create the narrative problem that it would mean Surgebinders are no longer limited by a resource, something that Brandon has previously commented on in regards to Wheel of Time. There, he mentioned that writing someone with almost deity-like powers taught him that it was possible, but that also implies he before viewed it differently, and we know that he's created the arc for Stormlight Archive before that, as the Way of Kings was released before his Wheel of Time books. That would imply to me that he would not have considered power that is not limited by a resource (or severely limited in another way) previously, so unless he has another limitation in place it's unlikely we'll see it.

For the record, we do have a WoB somewhere (sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up) that we will have scenes set on Braize in the second half.

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

 

Another problem would be that, if Roshar is destroyed, the Surgebinders no longer have access to the Surges, as they no longer have Stormlight. On the other hand, Breath could potentially fuel that, though it will eventually run out. The only way I can see to overcome this is if my theory is correct that Surgebinding is something that is not orignally limited to Stormlight, but has been limited to that by Honor, though this would create the narrative problem that it would mean Surgebinders are no longer limited by a resource

Cultivation has fueled at least one person with Caloric Investiture (Lift), so we know other shards can fuel Radiants. If Cultivation survives, but the planet does not, we may still have Surgebinders. Also, it is very likely that Surgebinding was originally fueled by Voidlight. Also also keep in mind that the Heralds didn't use Stormlight; stormlight itself is a more recent hack that started when the spren started bonding humans. Honour never intended this, but allowed the innovation. 

I didn't know about the Braize WOB, and admittedly that weakens my argument, but it is still possible that Odium attacks Nalthis via Braize, or the Surgebinders assault Braize as well.

As for the readability thing, Warbreaker is already way more important in Stormlight than any other crossover has been, and Brandon seems to be willing to add more and more Nalthis crossovers as he goes, so to me this means Nalthis will be explained in some way. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Diomedes]

@teknopathetic I don`t know about your Nalthis theory. The evidence is a bit to thin. Shouldn`t a massive plotpoint like this be set up more carefully, you know, since WoK? 

6 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Also, we know that the people of Roshar will eventually leave the planet

"We know"? Do you have an WoB for this? The Iri thing alone is a bit thin, to say that "We know".

I agree though that certain sentient races will leave Roshar by the end of book 5. I believe that a lot of humans will stay on Roshar, now beeing Odiums people. A probable candidate may be Braize but Nalthis, as you suggested, is likewise possible.

I have a theory written up here, that it is indeed Odiums "endgame" for Roshar to bring humans, his original people, back to his cause. The Listeners are just pawns he sacrifices in that game.    

 

[Yata he/him]

Well Nalthis is out of the equation for plot related reasons.

But Great Roshar offers two others planets for the people to flee without mess with others books' plot or require a Deep change in the magic or ...the absence of most of the Arc2 main cast (Taln, Shalash and the Spren can't leave the system easily)

Edited May 9, 2018 by Yata

[Gasper he/him]

I doubt that the planet will be destroyed, that would be too much like mistborn. I think that it is likely that Odium will lose, but at a heavy cost for the radiants, but I think Roshar will still be around in Mistborn Era 4. But I do think that many more people are going to die by the end of the series.

[Yata he/him]

28 minutes ago, Gasper said:

I doubt that the planet will be destroyed, that would be too much like mistborn. I think that it is likely that Odium will lose, but at a heavy cost for the radiants, but I think Roshar will still be around in Mistborn Era 4. But I do think that many more people are going to die by the end of the series.

In Mistborn, Scadrial isn't destroyed. So I don't see too much parallel here

[Solant he/him]

I think the line Hoid gave us about watching the world burn to get what he wants will be the biggest foreshadow we get. I suspect this is what BS was referencing when he said we know how it ends. I don't really have any proof to support this belief. . .it's just a feeling I have.

[teknopathetic he/him]

9 hours ago, Solant said:

I think the line Hoid gave us about watching the world burn to get what he wants will be the biggest foreshadow we get. I suspect this is what BS was referencing when he said we know how it ends. I don't really have any proof to support this belief. . .it's just a feeling I have.

I know, right? We have been giving nothing but evidence that Roshar's people are going to have to abandon the planet and make yet another pilgrimage. 

"We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the fourth land. Eventually, all will be gathered back in- when the Seventh Land is attained- and we will once again become one"— Ym

It would be interesting if Braize became the new home for some of the Roshar population, or if Ashyn was restored. Perhaps with Odium gone Cultivation could be free to reform Ashyn? But for me I would much prefer to see a refugee crisis hit Nalthis or Vax. With Nalthis being so "close", Nalthis seems the most likely. Or perhaps some flee to Nalthis but others remain with their spren. Shrug. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic he/him]

17 hours ago, Yata said:

Well Nalthis is out of the equation for plot related reasons.

Why for plot reasons? We only have the book Nightblood left for Nalthis, so that cant be that huge of a problem. And with Warbreaker being a prequel to Stormlight, and with 3 major characters being in both books, it seems that Nalthis will be at least of minor importance to Stormlight? And with Worldhopping be fairly easy, humans could always flee to Nalthis. Sure, the Spren are an issue, but humans have abandoned Spren before, OR the humans could find workarounds like transporting Spren in fabrials.

I am not saying the refugee crisis would be perfect, but not-perfect is exactly what a crisis is. Imagine Shallan choosing between going to another planet with Adolin or choosing to not abandon pattern: journey before destination, much?

Edited May 9, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Naurock]

On 5/8/2018 at 10:11 AM, teknopathetic said:

Radiants wont win.

WOB that we've already seen how Stormlight will end by the end of TWoK and/or WOR.

"You already know how the Storlight Archive will end".

We have not seen anyone winning. What we have seen is Odium obliterating the planet. Let's assume the good guys save the day at the last minute. Is that interesting or unique? Would Brandon want to do the same old story again? Nah. This story is about refugees, land possession, and cultural diffusion. Whats the most interesting ending? The interesting ending is not the good guys save the day and the humans hug the Singers. No. Us returning to The Girl Who Looked Up is the most interesting ending. 

WoK excerpts

Quote

“Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us."

Ch 56 epigraph

Quote

And all the world was shattered!” Maps yelled, back arching, eyes wide, flecks of red spittle on his cheeks. “The rocks trembled with their steps, and the stones reached toward the heavens. We die! We die!”

WoK Chapter 57

These are the biggest support to we know how it ends and it's not great for the heroes.

Quote

“The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.”

WoK Chapter 60 epigraph

@Solant @Diomedes

It's not ironclad, but the Deathrattles seem terrifying for Rosharans.

[MountainKing]

The Deathrattles come from future's Odium sees, there are other futures cannot be learned via deathrattles.

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

The Deathrattles come from future's Odium sees, there are other futures cannot be learned via deathrattles.

There is a lot of speculation surround what Odium sees as Odium seems HORRIBLE or predicting the future. The Unmade may have some future sight, but it hasn't proved useful to anyone yet. If we are to believe the Taker of Secrets, Odium doesnt even know about her plans (he suspects, but hasn't "seen" anything). 

Edited May 9, 2018 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:57 PM, Stormrunner1730 said:

This might be kind of obvious/stated before, but the Radiants ultimately have to win because of their Oaths.  

Shouldn't the Radiants lose because of their oaths? If it came to murdering a baby to save the world or protecting a baby to retain your honour, we might be seeing the world burning; life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.  

I mean, look at what happened with the Parshendi? It was smart to take away their souls, but it wasn't right. i fully expect the world to burn because some radiant(s) refuse to choose death before life.

We have the death-rattles which foreshadow this moral inevitability: “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw ” and “So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... ”

Roshar is doomed in my opinion, but maybe humanity's honour might have a chance.

Edited May 9, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Stormrunner1730]

46 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Shouldn't the Radiants lose because of their oaths? If it came to murdering a baby to save the world or protecting a baby to retain your honour, we might be seeing the world burning; life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.  

I mean, look at what happened with the Parshendi? It was smart to take away their souls, but it wasn't right. i fully expect the world to burn because some radiant(s) refuse to choose death before life.

We have the death-rattles which foreshadow this moral inevitability: “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw ” and “So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... ”

Roshar is doomed in my opinion, but maybe humanity's honour might have a chance.

Yeah I should re-word the original post haha.  So my main thing is that Sanderson is saying something big and important about humanity and life.  His life philosophy (paraphrased, there is a WOB somewhere, but I don't have it on-hand) is that people are good.  I think his ultimate message with Stormlight will be that following the Oaths/sticking to your personal moral code/fully-actualizing yourself as a person leads to some sort of catharsis moment.  I absolutely agree that there will be tragedy by the end of the series (probably either in the form of Roshar being destroyed, but Odium losing, etc).  I'm not quite sure how I feel about Nalthis as the human refuge because Brandon has said that he wants the series to be (relatively) self contained.  But I think some sort of mass human refugee migration is very possible.   

 

Anyways, I don't think Brandon will have the protagonists of his Magnum Opus as examples of how not-to-act as a person (unless you count Moash/Vyre as a protagonist haha).  The Radiants are people that we strive to be and exemplify the best that humanity is capable of (while obvioulsy all being super flawed people haha).  At this point, I'm back to rambling (haha), but basically I think Brandon will want the series to end in a hopeful light (ala Mistborn era 1, but different) and give us (the audience) a reason to strive to be Radiants in our own lives. 

 

Now, he could just subvert everything I just said haha.  He could be using certain parts of the Radiants as warnings about sticking to a dogma, being inflexible, etc (depending highly on the Order haha).  However, i still think that ultimately the series will have a looking-hopefully-to-the-future ending (even though it will certainly be very bitter-sweet).