Qanon Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 So a friend of mine finally got around to reading Oathbringer for the first time and he made this observation: he believes the First Ideal of the knights radiants reflect all three shards. Life Before Death: Cultivation Strength Before Weakness: Odium Journey Before Destination: Honor I don't know if this has been noticed before, we barely read these forums but thought this might be something cool enough to share. 16
Llarimar he/him Posted May 7, 2018 Posted May 7, 2018 This is really interesting - I haven't personally seen it mentioned on the Shard before. I can see how "Strength Before Weakness" could equal Odium, and "Journey Before Destination" could equal Honor, but I am not so sure, however, about "Life Before Death" for Cultivation. Cultivation is about growth, decay and natural processes - she does not necessarily value life over death and she is not a merciful god like Honor might have been. In many ways I see Cultivation as the opposite of mercy. In a different world, under different circumstances, I could see Cultivation being construed as an adversary. Mistborn spoilers: Spoiler Brandon has said that Cultivation is very similar to Ruin from the Mistborn trilogy, because "Cultivation" and "Ruin" are really two sides of the same coin. Here's a WoB that talks about how they're similar. Quote Nepene I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people. Brandon Sanderson Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view. If they could have their way, Cultivation and Ruin are probably the types of gods who would give very little free choice to people - they are like all-powerful gardeners who don't care about the desires of their garden. So I am not so sure about "Life Before Death" matching with Cultivation, since Cultivation is more about "Life and death, in balance." And all three of the phrases "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination" could all just be seen as different aspects of Honor. But it's still definitely an interesting idea, there might be something to it. 1
Varenus Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 @Llarimar I see what you are saying, and I do partially agree, but "Life before Death" need not be about mercy. Sometimes it's about making the best possible choice for life, even if that involves something distasteful. Which, in my mind, seems very Cultivation like. Take the difference between Jasnah's and Kaladin's philosophies for example. Jasnah puts the lives of the innocent humans over the lives of the potentially dangerous parshpeople. So you could say that Jasnah is putting "Life before Death" even though she is proposing something awful and certain to lead to death. So, really, it is up to the interpretation of the one swearing the oath.
Wyndlerunner he/him Posted May 9, 2018 Posted May 9, 2018 If Cultivation is a Shard all about the natural process, I can see how "Life before Death" could fit her. All things must die, and Cultivation gets that, but before death comes life- so in a way she is the embodiment of that oath.
go_go_gragdet Posted May 9, 2018 Posted May 9, 2018 That's interesting, I hadn't thought about that at all. Admittedly, "Strength before weakness" IS ambiguous, and I guess I only thought about one side of it after Teft's "lesson" in chapter 59 of Way of Kings: Quote “Strength before weakness. All men are weak at some time in their lives. The Radiant protects those who are weak, and uses his strength for others. Strength does not make one capable of rule; it makes one capable of service.” I wonder if people have other "odiumy" interpretations of the First Ideal. Can't think of any at the moment.
ghajan monk Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Odium is all about Hatred, Passion and Vengeance, also he is the Void sucking in all emotional pain leaving you numb. While you could twist the meanings of the ideals to match with Odium you could also reverse the Ideal itself: Death before Life. A Singer must die for one of the Fused to live. Or like Taravingian you must kill to gain future knowledge necessary to save life. Weakness before Strength. If Dalinar had broken and given his pain to Odium he would have been remade into Odium's champion. Destination before Journey. Vengeance no matter the cost. House Sadeas chose to side with Odium to gain vengeance for the murder of Sadeas. I know that if we give it more thought we can find more examples of this. 2
Barbarian AL he/him Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 On 5/8/2018 at 0:03 AM, Qanon said: So a friend of mine finally got around to reading Oathbringer for the first time and he made this observation: he believes the First Ideal of the knights radiants reflect all three shards. Life Before Death: Cultivation Strength Before Weakness: Odium Journey Before Destination: Honor I don't know if this has been noticed before, we barely read these forums but thought this might be something cool enough to share. If this can be confirmed by Brandon it would be awesome. Well spotted :D!
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