[OB ] Sja-anat's purpose?

[Ciridae]

A lot of the unmade serve a specific purpose, useful in times of war. But Sja-anat's role is a little more unclear. She corrupts lesser spren, but how was that helpful to Odium during Desolations?We've been told the Radiants feared Sja-anat the most of all the unmade, yet we also know that corruptions like in the cases of Glys and the Oathgate spren are something new and were considered to be impossible in the past. So how do Odiums forces benefit from corrupting lesser spren? 

So seeing how she is called the taker of secrets, and that she is able to see and communicate with Shallan through a corrupted gloryspren, I could imagine that she was something of a spy master. Humans draw corrupted spren, Sja-anat sees what's going on and reports it. 

Could she have another purpose, and what does it mean for the Radiants and the outcome of the Desolation if Sja-anat defects? Why did Radiants use to fear her so if she couldn't change their spren? 

[Strifelover]

Spymaster is a good thought, and certainly makes sense given her nickname Taker of Secrets. I personally am not sold that she couldn't previously corrupt Radiant spren. I know the Radiants say she couldn't, but they'd have a huge vested interest in saying that. It could be pretty disastrous if there were fears or speculation that the Radiants' Spren were being influenced by Odium. The level of fear they seem to have for Sja-Anat, to the point that Hessi suggests abandoning a city entirely if you think she's there, seems to point to something bigger than just corrupting lesser Spren.

But maybe it's like you say, once she's there and lots of everyday Spren have been corrupted it's tough to avoid her eavesdropping. 

[Stark]

Or maybe it is more insidious than that.  We have already seen the unmade able to affect the minds of humans in their region, whether it be the Thrill, the Death Rattles, or the Heart of the revel.  If three unmade are able affect peoples behaviour, and at least two of them are the less cognitively able Unmade, then maybe she can too.

 

There was that line in Hessica, the book Shallan found, that said you should run from a region if weird spren start appearing, as it is indicative of her presence.

 

So what if, when she corrupts a lesser spren, it becomes a gateway.  And then if you attract that type of spren, I don't know, corrupted joy spren.  What if there is a Connection between a person feeling an emotion, and the spren attracted to and feeding on that emotion? While you are feeling joy, the corrupted joy spren appears, with non corrupted spren, or only corrupted appear, and while the corrupted spren 'feeds' she can highjack that connection to plant suggestions?

 

We already saw that each corrupted spren can act as her eyes and ears, when the GLory spren she highjacked passes info to Shallan in Shadesmar.  But what if she can do more?  With enough corrupted spren in a region, what if she can start manipulating and programing sleepers among the humans?

 

I only suggest the sleeper action because otherwise the advice to flee an area with corrupted spren seems excessive for an Unmade that can only spy through her minions.  She must have some other ability that would make her that scary.  So maybe she is part of why the Queen's guards were so... Okay with killing messengers and being creepy-evil.  It's not just that they are following the queen, but they are being subtly modified by Sja-anat to think this is normal, okay behaviour through the dense concentration of corrupted spren.

[teknopathetic]

Moelach of the Death Rattles also seems fairly useless. He can see a tiny bit of the future by waiting for a soul to die? And then ....? Uh?Cool?

I mean, maybe he can give false visions, or he can make people want to kill each other to get those visions?  My current theory is that Odium has no special access to future sight (beyond being a smart shard), and that Moelach is simply a propaganda aide that convinces the Rosharan Public never to use foresight because it is spooky. 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Naurock]

So Spren are literally tiny pieces of Investiture. What if Odium created a splinter specifically with a mandate to corrupt and collect himself more free Investiture? 

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Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
source

He can probably already sense his own personal Investiture in the Spren, but maybe by corrupting them they become entirely his to use.

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WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, but it's also along the lines of, Odium wants to break up the other ones, so they don't...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

source

What if he's trying to slowly climb higher? I understand this is a slow task, but he is stuck in the Rosharan system anyways due to the Oathpact. Why not make use of the time by assimilating more Investiture for his own use?

[dvoraen]

I've been wondering if Sja-anat can puppeteer or possess living things via her lesser corrupted spren and in so doing consume memories and knowledge.  Part of why I say this comes from the vision in Words of Radiance:

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"It's here, then," the knight said. "Sja-anat's spy. ... It won't be able to go far without a carrier."

-- Words of Radiance, p74hb

(Emphasis mine)  What does "without a carrier" mean, unless that red-eyed, shadowy spren that Dalinar saw was able to bond with and/or inhabit people or animals?  We know Sja-anat can directly interface with her corrupted spren, as shown with Shallan and the corrupted gloryspren, so it only stands to reason that if that spren is bound to someone, she could potentially have an opening through the firewall, so to speak, to "hack" the person bonded with that spren.

Either way, I'm really curious if we'll see Renarin speak with her and vice-versa, on account of Glys's bond.

Edited April 26, 2018 by dvoraen

[The Deity]

It might also be because when she corrupts lesser spren she is in a way "Bonding" Odium to Honor's essence in a way corrupting Roshar as that would lead to stronger influence during the Desolations. I know it sounds weird, but think about it, if spren are essences of Honor and she corrupts those essences, she can gain more information like a spy

Edited April 26, 2018 by The Deity

[teknopathetic]

2 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I've been wondering if Sja-anat can puppeteer or possess living things via her lesser corrupted spren and in so doing consume memories and knowledge.  Part of why I say this comes from the vision in Words of Radiance:

(Emphasis mine)  What does "without a carrier" mean, unless that red-eyed, shadowy spren that Dalinar saw was able to bond with and/or inhabit people or animals?  We know Sja-anat can directly interface with her corrupted spren, as shown with Shallan and the corrupted gloryspren, so it only stands to reason that if that spren is bound to someone, she could potentially have an opening through the firewall, so to speak, to "hack" the person bonded with that spren.

Oh, creepy. It almost sounds like she can use a corrupted Nahel Bond to Awaken living things or objects, or influence them like they are spiked. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Wyndlerunner]

2 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I've been wondering if Sja-anat can puppeteer or possess living things via her lesser corrupted spren and in so doing consume memories and knowledge.  Part of why I say this comes from the vision in Words of Radiance:

(Emphasis mine)  What does "without a carrier" mean, unless that red-eyed, shadowy spren that Dalinar saw was able to bond with and/or inhabit people or animals?  We know Sja-anat can directly interface with her corrupted spren, as shown with Shallan and the corrupted gloryspren, so it only stands to reason that if that spren is bound to someone, she could potentially have an opening through the firewall, so to speak, to "hack" the person bonded with that spren.

Either way, I'm really curious if we'll see Renarin speak with her and vice-versa, on account of Glys's bond.

I'd almost forgotten that vision. but the phrase "Sja-anat's spy" makes me lean towards the spymaster theory. I also have a theory that the Unmade are a kind of anti-Herald, like their Antithesis- but I have little to no evidence yet

[Ciridae]

8 hours ago, Stark said:

With enough corrupted spren in a region, what if she can start manipulating and programing sleepers among the humans?

Wow yeah scary. I like it. Those guards in Kholinar do act very differently from all the other revelers... 

I do also wonder about the carrier. No spren we know is inhibited from moving on its own in the physical, unless they are trapped in a gemstone. Why would Sja-anats spy need a piggyback at all? 

6 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Moelach of the Death Rattles also seems fairly useless. He can see a tiny bit of the future by waiting for a soul to die? And then ....? Uh?Cool?

Agreed, there should be more to him too. What I think is that as people die he looks through their minds to look for information. I say this because in the Kaza interlude the Sleepless refuses to tell Kaza if there is a cure because there are things that can take secrets from her even after death. The death rattles would be a side effect that where Moelach connects with the dying person so rifle through what they know, but in return the dying person gets to know some of what Moelach knows. Kinda like when Shallan touches Re-shephir both of their souls are exposed to one another. 

[Xtafa]

If she is a Taker of Secrets, perhaps she can use corrupted Spren as a sort of spy network, depending if she can give them a touch more intelligence or see through them somewhat. It has been shown she has minor control over them to a degree. 

 

Otherwise, if the 'lesser spren create shardplate' theory holds true, maybe thats why they caused some fear.  

[Dawnshard]

The Unmade are Splinters so I would assume they have similar power levels to the Stormfather but split among 9 instead of one. 

[Toaster Retribution]

I like the whole controlling humans idea. It works within the magic system, and piggybacking bonds between people and spren to influence and manipulate sounds like a scary power. Sja-anat is pretty cool. 

When it comes to Moelach, he probably steals info from dead people. I doubt Odium would produce a splinter just for PR. 

[hypatia]

But if this is the thing with Moelach, if he steals infos for Odium from the dead people, than Taravangian had not only gathered death rattles with every victim in his clinic, he also had involuntary gathered more informations for Odium.

[Naurock]

1 hour ago, Dawnshard said:

The Unmade are Splinters so I would assume they have similar power levels to the Stormfather but split among 9 instead of one. 

I'm pretty sure the Honorblades are considered Splinters as well. Brandon describes them as pieces of Honor's soul, and gave the wielder direct access to his essence.

[Angsos]

Or maybe T was working for Odium and passed the clinic of a benign Nazi info-gathering place for his followers.

Could Yelig-nar have affected the guards like he did Sadeas's men after Amaram consumed the sphere?

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Angsos said:

Or maybe T was working for Odium and passed the clinic of a benign Nazi info-gathering place for his followers.

Up until the end of OB, T was clearly not working for Odium. 

I believe that the hospital did benefit Odium, but inadvertently. 

[harel55]

2 hours ago, Angsos said:

Or maybe T was working for Odium and passed the clinic of a benign Nazi info-gathering place for his followers.

Could Yelig-nar have affected the guards like he did Sadeas's men after Amaram consumed the sphere?

Yelig-nar was not affecting Sadeas's men; Nergaoul was.

[dvoraen]

20 hours ago, Naurock said:

I'm pretty sure the Honorblades are considered Splinters as well. Brandon describes them as pieces of Honor's soul, and gave the wielder direct access to his essence.

Which then begs one question I've been wondering about, as it ties into this thread somewhat:

Has Odium and/or Sja-anat corrupted the Windrunner Honorblade before it was given to Moash?  It seems strange that he would use Stormlight when it was given him by one of the Fused, especially when Brandon left it (deliberately?) unclear what kind of Light was in the sphere.

[Toaster Retribution]

It would indeed be interesting if Sja-anat could corrupt splinters as well as spren. But we don’t know the exact mechanics of her corruption though, do we?

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, dvoraen said:

Has Odium and/or Sja-anat corrupted the Windrunner Honorblade before it was given to Moash?  It seems strange that he would use Stormlight when it was given him by one of the Fused, especially when Brandon left it (deliberately?) unclear what kind of Light was in the sphere.

We don't even know that it would need to be corrupted. The Heralds originally had no need of stormlight as they had a direct feed from Honor. The Fused seem to use the exact same powers as the Radiants, so in my opinion, they're surgebinding and not voidbinding. If surgebinding can run off of Voidlight... 

Additionally, Moash/Vyre is going to need a direct feed from Odium to keep up with either his Fused companions, or to fight a Radiant. The Honorblades rips through Stormlight much more quickly than is feasible. It also heals much more slowly, can't heal Shardblade wounds, and doesn't offer plate. 

In order for Vyre to be any kind of a threat, he needs to become an anti-herald in truth, and get a investiture feed from Odium. 

[Toaster Retribution]

@Calderis Can Odium feed Vyre through the honorblade without a hack though? 

[Yata]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Calderis Can Odium feed Vyre through the honorblade without a hack though? 

Nothing prevents that except Odium's Will.

Whatever delivery Method he is using with Fused could in theory be' used to fuel someonelse

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

Whatever delivery Method he is using with Fused could in theory be' used to fuel someonelse

So one Shard can use another Shards splinter?

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

So one Shard can use another Shards splinter?

I don't think it's a matter of Odium using the Splinter. 

The Honorblade give access to the surges. If the surges can run off voidlight, then it's not a matter of the Honorblade at all, just feeding investiture to Moash, and then him using the Honorblade. 

It depends on what else is necessary to power the surges with Voidlight, but the Fused make me feel it isn't complicated.