Significance of shadsmar map projection and boundries?

[Slay This Rock]

We know that shadesmar and physical realm shares roughly the same space, and can be used to connect to other world's shadsmar just by traversing through the map border. 

My question is.. do we know how that map projection comes to be? Eventually it transforms the spherical surface of a planet to 2D in some way.  Is there any significance about the center of map? the border of map? Was there WoB on the possible importance of these, or is it like what I assume just happenstance during the map drawing process?

This probably won't matter to most people as perpendicular point is what they use to travel, but for an Elsecaller or anyone who can cross the realm at will, it may make their trip much faster if they can drop into shadesmar as close to the border of the world they are going as possible.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

7 hours ago, moejarv said:

My question is.. do we know how that map projection comes to be?

Most relevant WoBs I could find. (1, 2, 3, 4)

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Dirigible's sister
Is the Cognitive Realm flat or spherical?

Brandon Sanderson
The Cognitive Realm is this weird thing, where it's flat, but it's distorted.

Dirigible's sister
Yeah, 'cause I was going to say, if you make a globe flat...

Brandon Sanderson
You can walk from one planet to the next. So it's got really weird...the spatial reasoning doesn't work the same way.

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Questioner
So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. When Kelsier is in Shadesmar. He meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrian. Like how far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, that's within-- he has s-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into kind of the darkness between planets. He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner
Okay, so he's <still there> in the Scadrian system, just... just edging it there.

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, mhm. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point <at> him. I would get really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner
That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson
It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah.

Questioner
Okay. So in the Cognitive Realm... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner
So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it's *inaudible* would it...

Brandon Sanderson
It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause...

But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that. You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And them it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

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Questioner 1
You said that moving people like that [Cognitive Shadows] or spren off-world, from Roshar is difficult.

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Questioner 1
What about physically, say the Ones Above visit them, and they fly away?

Brandon Sanderson
So one of the things you'll have to be asking questions and theorizing on is what happens if you try to carry a spren around the planet. What happens to their Cognitive sense, right? So you're on Roshar, right? So on the Physical Realm what would happen-- Because on Shadesmar, you have a flattened version. So there are questions for you to be theorizing implicit in that.  And one of them is, what happens, you cross a threshold circling the globe, your spren, what happens to them? Because-- Okay? This relates to the question you’re asking.

Questioner 2
Wait wait, you have a three dimensional plain coexisting with a two dimensional plain?

Brandon Sanderson
Well, two dimensional is the wrong term, but basically...

Questioner 3
Can you specify the mathematically projection used to create this? *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson
We'll try to give it to you eventually, but this is the sort of stuff that I do that Peter's like "Oh man..." *laughter* "Alright give me the math Peter." "Ahhh what do you mean? I'm not a mathematician." "Eh, y'know. You're close." It is very convenient to have a physicist and a mathematician in my writing group.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
One that's probably for Peter. Shadesmar appears to be flat. And you talk about people walking between worlds. But worlds are spherical. What's up with that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
This has given him a bit of a headache. It works in my brain, and I'm pretty sure we can make it on the world. Remember, things people think about manifest in Shadesmar, so I've been able to work out a map where places that just aren't inhabited are shrunk in Shadesmar.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
And they turn into points, so you can just walk off them?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yeah.

We've also discussed some of the topic in multiple threads in the past(with inconsistent results):

Spoiler

As it turns out, there's a lot that we don't know.

6 hours ago, moejarv said:

Is there any significance about the border of map?

I do remember speculation on here that intent has a little to do with that. (this explanation is gonna be a little wonky, fair warning)

We were thinking that you wouldn't go "off-world" without intending too, so the local CR is functionally a globe if you are just using the CR to travel around the world faster. If you jumped into the CR in say.. Jah Keved, then Alethkar is gonna be to the east. If you intended to use the CR to quick travel around Roshar, then you could continue east a little ways past Alethkar/Shattered Plains and end up in Aimia, something that could only be done on a spherical plane. But if you intended to worldhop towards Scadrial, then you could walk past Alethkar and into the darkness between planets, something that can only be done on a flat plane. This duality is made possible by the fact that the CR is literally shaped by perception.

To use a potentially clearer example: the Columbus story. He felt that he could get to India from Europe by sailing westward around the world. If he had went into a Cognitive Realm for Earth, he would be able to do just that(after crossing over the Americas, of course). But if someone intended to go westward and fall off of the planet, they could reach the "edge" and go into the darkness between worlds before they even crossed the Atlantic. What this means for when there are multiple people is unknown, and is yet another thing that is breaking our brains.

[Slay This Rock]

Wow. thanks for such a comprehensive response!

Still one question after finish the response.. if the intent shapes the cognitive realm (knock knock, Matrix?),  then how would it work for a world hopper who visited the world the first time, and have no concept about how the world should look like?  This is one key assumption but still feels not easily defendable.  

But maybe just like Brandon.. It works in his head, but not really in math / physics.  

Edited April 23, 2018 by moejarv
spelling

[Weltall]

The Cognitive 'zone' of a planet it shaped by the thoughts of those in its corresponding Physical space, so a visitor to the planet will always see whatever a native would. Consider how Shallan and Jasnah both see the sea of beads even though they have no prior knowledge of Shadesmar on their first visits or what it 'should' look like. It was already there, shaped by thousands and thousands of years of thought. Same thing with a worldhopper.

[Slay This Rock]

Got it. Then this means personal intent would not matter, and Jasnah can't go from shattered plains to Shin just by wishing to reach Shin and go due east?  The intent theory wouldn't work in face of the collective cognitive force then.

Then it seems like there would be world hopping hot spot for elsecaller, maybe road sign says " scardial -> 30 days on foot" , "<- sel 45 days on foot"

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 4/24/2018 at 0:06 PM, moejarv said:

Then this means personal intent would not matter, and Jasnah can't go from shattered plains to Shin just by wishing to reach Shin and go due east?  The intent theory wouldn't work in face of the collective cognitive force then.

Jasnah can go from the Plains to Shinovar by going east. Nobody is technically thinking that you can't, so that doesn't conflict with the Cognitive Collective in the slightest. There are people who know that you can, either b/c they are a Worldhopper or educated enough to know that planets are round. And then there is the common masses, who only think "going that way is dangerous" because of Highstorms. Nowhere in that thought process is "dead end," "point of no return," "edge of the world," or anything of the sort that would conflict with those who know.

The majority of the Cognitive Collective only thinks "water that way, water this way, and they are one big body of water." The small amount of people who are thinking about the other side of the world would essentially become the "Collective" for that area. It's like saying that Southern Scadrial didn't exist in the CR b/c the majority(ie: all of Northern Scadrial) wasn't thinking about it, when we know that's not how it works.

Edited April 26, 2018 by The One Who Connects