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[OB] Stormlight D&D Alignments


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I'm sure a D&D alignment thread has been posted, so if there's already one in existence, let me know.  I figured that it'd be cool to re-visit post-Oathbringer.  My big asterisk with these alignments is that it depends on your point of view.  I'm going to look at it from the point of the Radiants (at least Dalinar and those who follow him).

 

Kaladin- Neutral Good: By the nature of the honorspren, he'll do things that are against the letter of the law.  I.e. Fighting against Sadeas/his other slave masters, (initially) agreeing to help kill Elokhar.

Szeth- Neutral Good: In general, I'd say he's Neutral Good, but there's an argument that he's neutral evil (following his "masters'" instructions) or lawful good (choosing to follow Dalinar because he is a man of his word?) depending on what point in the story we're in.  But I'm going settle on Neutral Good for now, as he is Pro-Dalinar's Radiants, who are in turn for saving Roshar from Odium (that's a HUGE oversimplification, but I'll go with that for now until I've thought this through/hear what people have to say).  I'm probably most interested to hear people's thoughts on his alignment.

Dalinar- Lawful Good: He's probably the only character I'd classify as Lawful Good.  His entire character arc (especially in WOK) is learning how exemplify the positive qualities that he (as a person, man, Highprince, father, etc) claims to have.

Nale- Lawful Evil: He's very interesting, but at the end of the OB, I'd say he's Lawful Evil (assuming Dalinar's Radiants are "good".  Again, a major oversimplification, but for the sake of the discussion, I'll go with it).  He is very much following the law in supporting the Singers, since they were the original occupants of the land.  But he's also someone aligned to Odium because of this.

Odium/Rayse- Neutral Evil: The big asterisk to this and any Shard is that an alignment is based off of information we have onscreen.  But there are instances where he both acts exactly as the "law"/code of conduct states he must (Needing Dalinar's permission to leave his bonds), but is also super sneaky in how he interprets parts of those.. pacts (?) (His whole deal with Taravangian at the end/manipulating Dalinar into a position where he (Dalinar) could become Odium's champion.  

Honor/Tanavast- Neutral Good: Again, sticking with the asterisk on this one haha.  But Honor's ability to do "good" is constrained (or arguably boosted, depending on your perspective) by retraints he places on both himself and other (i.e. the Oathpact, Radiant Ideals, etc).  So while those parts are "lawful", they can still be twisted.  

Shallan- Chaotic Good: Now, Shallan post-OB will be interesting, but at least in WoR and OB, her multiple personalities have multiple effects on different characters and situations.  These effects are now always foreseen/thought of by Shallan/Radiant/Veil.  

Nighblood- Chaotic Neutral: This one could go either True Neutral, or any of the Chaotic options.  I'm using Chaotic Neutral because the instances we've seen Nightblood do stuff.

Adolin- Chaotic Good: He's pro-Dalinar' Radiants, but he'll pretty much do whatever he wants (i.e. killing Sadeas haha).

Jasnah- Neutral Good: She's pro-Dalinar's Radiants.  I'm tempted to put her under Lawful Good because of how logic dictates most of her decisions, but I feel like she's spent too much of her life spurning authority in general to be classified as such.

 

Please share your thoughts/add other characters (or rip my arguments to shreds as the Internet was designed haha).  But these were just a few thoughts I've been thinking about and wanted to see what people think.  

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I'd call Nale Lawful Neutral, actually.  I don't think he cares what's right or wrong any more.  He just follows the law and he doesn't care who or what he hurts, as long as he doesn't break the law.  So he has both good and bad actions, which is why I call him Lawful Neutral.

Edited by RShara
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39 minutes ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

Jasnah- Neutral Good: She's pro-Dalinar's Radiants.  I'm tempted to put her under Lawful Good because of how logic dictates most of her decisions, but I feel like she's spent too much of her life spurning authority in general to be classified as such.

I reckon I'd put Jasnah in Chaotic Good rather than Neutral. She is pro-radiant but she was very willing, and might still be, to kill the heralds and resume the Oathpact, or so was her original plan. Also when she killed the dudes in the alley to teach Shallan about "philosophy".

Edited by JoelyWoely
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I'd definitely put Szeth in Lawful first and then figure out where he'd belong on the Good-Evil axis. I would argue, in fact, that he's been basically everywhere on that axis, but I think the best fit is Lawful Neutral; he does what he is asked to do.

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I would call both Szeth and Nale Lawful Neutral at this point with Szeth leaning more towards Good and Nale towards Evil.

Nightblood doesn't really have a proper moral compass and should be viewed as True Neutral in the same way that animals are.

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I agree with most of these; I just have a couple changes and clarifications:

Szeth - Lawful Neutral. The identifying feature here is that the law, his law of being bound to whatever his master dictates, and then being bound to a specific law above all else, means that he by definiton will be good and evil and commit acts on both spectrums. 

Shallan - Neutral Good. She does not have multiple personalities—Veil and Radiant are still her, just her with a magically augmented mask on. I would argue that Shallan (as Veil) errs on the side of Chaotic Good, where as when she is Radiant she is more on the Lawful Good, which balances her overall in the “Neutral” zone, but still generally good. 

Also to add this one:

Lift - Chaotic good. She continually breaks the law to fulfill her own ends, but generally works toward the good of her friends and those around her. 

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I'd make the argument that Kaladin is Lawful Good, just the laws he follows are not the laws of the land. Lawful Good can apply to a personal code, rather than actual laws.

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  • Pagerunner changed the title to [OB] Stormlight D&D Alignments
2 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I would call both Szeth and Nale Lawful Neutral at this point with Szeth leaning more towards Good and Nale towards Evil.

Nightblood doesn't really have a proper moral compass and should be viewed as True Neutral in the same way that animals are.

I like both of these alot (especially the Szeth and Nale viewpoint here). 

However, with Nightblood, I feel like its Intent of "destroying evil" has to give it some sort of Chaotic bent, as it's entirely dependent on what it wants in the moment.

11 hours ago, RShara said:

I'd call Nale Lawful Neutral, actually.  I don't think he cares what's right or wrong any more.  He just follows the law and he doesn't care who or what he hurts, as long as he doesn't break the law.  So he has both good and bad actions, which is why I call him Lawful Neutral.

Yeah I see this with Nale, as his perspective is what changed in OB, rather than how he approaches morality.

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

I'd make the argument that Kaladin is Lawful Good, just the laws he follows are not the laws of the land. Lawful Good can apply to a personal code, rather than actual laws.

Oooh i really like this.  I'm not sure I agree with it, but I think this is the central question of Kaladin's arc in WoR.  I guess I'll agree with this statement since alot of other Windrunners so far have a similar "personal code" thing.  I personally see Kaladin as too conflicted to be Lawful good (he froze up when he couldn't decide which part of his moral "protection" code to follow in the Kholinar palace battle, among other reason obviously haha).

2 hours ago, Alderant said:

I agree with most of these; I just have a couple changes and clarifications:

Szeth - Lawful Neutral. The identifying feature here is that the law, his law of being bound to whatever his master dictates, and then being bound to a specific law above all else, means that he by definiton will be good and evil and commit acts on both spectrums. 

Shallan - Neutral Good. She does not have multiple personalities—Veil and Radiant are still her, just her with a magically augmented mask on. I would argue that Shallan (as Veil) errs on the side of Chaotic Good, where as when she is Radiant she is more on the Lawful Good, which balances her overall in the “Neutral” zone, but still generally good. 

Also to add this one:

Lift - Chaotic good. She continually breaks the law to fulfill her own ends, but generally works toward the good of her friends and those around her. 

I totally agree with Lift, and was trying to figure out how I'd place her.

I see this argument with Szeth (i.e. Taravangian compared Dalinar).    

I agree with your Shallan statement to an extent.  Through much of WoR and OB, Shallan believes she has multiple personalities (or at least sees her personas as independent of herself until the Thaylen Field battle moment), and so I think she can function as Chaotic Good depending on when in her story arc she is.  

 

I'll also add Taravangian as Chaotic Neutral in WoK and most of OB.  However, at the end of OB I'd say he's Neutral Evil, since he's prescribing himself partially to Odium's agenda.

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57 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I see no reason why a Lawful Good character cannot be conflicted about morality at times. I think anyone who has a moral code can be conflicted about it at times.

Yeah, that was bad phrasing.  I more meant that his moral code is a little more flexible (you could totally argue against this).  But Kaladin didn't feel like he knew whether to protect his Singer friends or City Watch friends.  And I guess now that I'm actually typing this out, I'm more seeing your point haha.  But it's an interesting dilemma.

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1 hour ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

Through much of WoR and OB, Shallan believes she has multiple personalities (or at least sees her personas as independent of herself until the Thaylen Field battle moment)

Can you explain where you're drawing this conclusion from?

As I understand things, she doesn't create Veil until well after arriving in the Shattered Plains, as a disguise for infiltrating the Ghostbloods. Veil doesn't even take on more human characteristics (independent of Shallan's normal ones) until several chapters into Oathbringer. Secondly, regarding your statement about WoR, there is no, as I see it, textual evidence to support your statement that she believes she has multiple personalities in that book.

With regards to believing herself to have multiple personalities, I'm not sure how much you know about DID but generally speaking, the host personality in this case is unaware of the other personalities. They may be aware that they exist, but they do not usually share memories or thoughts the way Shallan does with her personas.

2 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

or at least sees her personas as independent of herself until the Thaylen Field battle moment

I'm quoting this a second time because I want to address it specifically. In the battle of Thaylen Field, it is important to note that both Veil and Radiant are still Shallan. Oathbringer is an identity crisis for Shallan as she tries to balance who she wants to be with who she thinks she should be and who she believes she really is. What Veil and Radiant are, is they're really magically augmented masks--they have no life of their own and are wholly dependent on Shallan for their existence. What you're seeing at the battle on Thaylen field is a lightweaving projection of those two personas coupled, with Shallan's physical body--this is kind of akin to what Hoid did during his conversation with Shallan prior to this. However, if you go back to the Battle scene, you'll discover that Shallan is all three at once, not all three independently, which is what would occur if these were multiple personalities.

Finally, there is a Word of Brandon on the subject:

 

Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan's personas. How would they be viewed in the Spiritual Realm? Would they be an individual? Or would they be seen as being slightly separate?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They would be seen as an individual.

source

 

This is a strong indication that they are not separate identities, but are, in fact, all Shallan.

I can go into more detail as to why, though for that I would first point you to my comments in the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread and elsewhere on the shard, since I've talked about this a lot. If you still would like to see further analysis, I have an analysis thread that, as I reread the entire Stormlight trilogy thus far, I will be updating for a better understanding of the character.

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2 hours ago, Alderant said:
4 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

Through much of WoR and OB, Shallan believes she has multiple personalities (or at least sees her personas as independent of herself until the Thaylen Field battle moment)

Can you explain where you're drawing this conclusion from?

As I understand things, she doesn't create Veil until well after arriving in the Shattered Plains, as a disguise for infiltrating the Ghostbloods. Veil doesn't even take on more human characteristics (independent of Shallan's normal ones) until several chapters into Oathbringer. Secondly, regarding your statement about WoR, there is no, as I see it, textual evidence to support your statement that she believes she has multiple personalities in that book.

With regards to believing herself to have multiple personalities, I'm not sure how much you know about DID but generally speaking, the host personality in this case is unaware of the other personalities. They may be aware that they exist, but they do not usually share memories or thoughts the way Shallan does with her personas.

I'll re-phrase this.  Shallan seemed to think of the personalities as separate from herself (whenever she would refer to how "Veil" or "Radiant" would react in a certain situation.  I admittedly don't really know much of anything about DID, so I can't really speak to that (I apologize for any assumptions).  So in that way, what I said was incorrect.

 

2 hours ago, Alderant said:
4 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

or at least sees her personas as independent of herself until the Thaylen Field battle moment

I'm quoting this a second time because I want to address it specifically. In the battle of Thaylen Field, it is important to note that both Veil and Radiant are still Shallan. Oathbringer is an identity crisis for Shallan as she tries to balance who she wants to be with who she thinks she should be and who she believes she really is. What Veil and Radiant are, is they're really magically augmented masks--they have no life of their own and are wholly dependent on Shallan for their existence. What you're seeing at the battle on Thaylen field is a lightweaving projection of those two personas coupled, with Shallan's physical body--this is kind of akin to what Hoid did during his conversation with Shallan prior to this. However, if you go back to the Battle scene, you'll discover that Shallan is all three at once, not all three independently, which is what would occur if these were multiple personalities.

Finally, there is a Word of Brandon on the subject:

 

Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan's personas. How would they be viewed in the Spiritual Realm? Would they be an individual? Or would they be seen as being slightly separate?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They would be seen as an individual.

source

 

This is a strong indication that they are not separate identities, but are, in fact, all Shallan.

I can go into more detail as to why, though for that I would first point you to my comments in the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread and elsewhere on the shard, since I've talked about this a lot. If you still would like to see further analysis, I have an analysis thread that, as I reread the entire Stormlight trilogy thus far, I will be updating for a better understanding of the character.

I totally see your point about both her arc in Oathbringer and that WOB.  I completely agree about Shallan's arc in Oathrbinger being about her wrestling with different ideas of herself.  In regard to the alignments (I had initially said I thought Shallan was Chaotic Good), I was more thinking that these three personas could have Shallan acting differently in different situations, which could be kind of sporadic (i.e. Shallan out at a bar with Adolin is different than Veil at a bar gathering information).  Does that make sense?  Or am I talking myself into circles with that now? Haha 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

I'll re-phrase this.  Shallan seemed to think of the personalities as separate from herself (whenever she would refer to how "Veil" or "Radiant" would react in a certain situation.  I admittedly don't really know much of anything about DID, so I can't really speak to that (I apologize for any assumptions).  So in that way, what I said was incorrect.

 

I totally see your point about both her arc in Oathbringer and that WOB.  I completely agree about Shallan's arc in Oathrbinger being about her wrestling with different ideas of herself.  In regard to the alignments (I had initially said I thought Shallan was Chaotic Good), I was more thinking that these three personas could have Shallan acting differently in different situations, which could be kind of sporadic (i.e. Shallan out at a bar with Adolin is different than Veil at a bar gathering information).  Does that make sense?  Or am I talking myself into circles with that now? Haha 

 

 

I’m with you now. No worries. Like I said, this is something I’ve talked about a lot. I would still put her neutral, but I can see why you’d choose chaotic. :) 

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I wrote a big post about Nightblood, but I realized that by the end I was talking myself in circles. I'll just say that it's in the grey area between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Good, since its intent doesn't always line up with its actions.

Interesting thread, btw.

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I'd like to add that Malata is Lawful Evil, from what we've seen of her. 

Syl is neutral good, following a ever changing personal code but always having the goal of helping Kaladin, but definitely willing and has broken strict rules. 

Pattern is true neutral, as he is a scholar willing to see the benefit of both sides Shallan/Veil/Radiant chooses to do, rather than swaying it any way. 

Evi is Chaotic Good, seeing her end benefit as a betterment of all parties involved, and doing whatever it takes to achieve it (yikes). 

Renarin is Lawful Neutral. He follows rules and regulations but is morally ambiguous in many situations, because he doesn't act most of the time. He is willing to protect those he loves, though. 

Ash is chaotic neutral, acting of her own code entirely and not doing too much either evil or good to count as anything besides someone trying to survive and thrive in a world where she is guilty beyond belief despite herself. 

Taln is lawful good, in his sober moments he still holds true to his word, and is elated to find his sacrifice allowed for growth and development. (Poor Ash's reaction to this). 

I could keep going but I may end up flipping through the book to psycho-analyze more characters

 

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On 2/28/2018 at 9:18 PM, JoelyWoely said:
On 2/28/2018 at 8:39 PM, Stormrunner1730 said:

Jasnah- Neutral Good: She's pro-Dalinar's Radiants.  I'm tempted to put her under Lawful Good because of how logic dictates most of her decisions, but I feel like she's spent too much of her life spurning authority in general to be classified as such.

I reckon I'd put Jasnah in Chaotic Good rather than Neutral. She is pro-radiant but she was very willing, and might still be, to kill the heralds and resume the Oathpact, or so was her original plan. Also when she killed the dudes in the alley to teach Shallan about "philosophy".

I'm going to go with True neutral for Jasnah.  The end goal of her logical approach seems to be to act upon threats much like an "informed" animal.  Therefore her alignment doesn't change from other animals, just her level of knowledge.  In addition, her decision on whether to kill or not is reasoned, but not in adherence to any legal structure. 

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