[OB] The Case for Kadolin

[PhineasGage]

23 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

though the heavy-handed emphasis in the Drehy arc that homosexuality is not a big deal in Alethkar does leave us in a situation where the other characters could essentially ignore it and have that fit into our world-building so far, hmmm

I must say that Alethkar being ok with homosexuality strikes me a a bit odd. I mean they heavily divide the gender roles such that I don't quite see how it would work for a same-sex couple to easily operate - for example men can't read/write the full language meaning they need female relatives to scribe for them including in the business world. I also got the impression that business itself belongs in the "male province" of gendered occupations so a woman couldn't operate a business without a man? I would ahve thought that a society that heavily dictates what a man or woman can or can't do, even in their leisure time, would also be highly dictatorial about how romance would operate? 

Perhaps it is less dogmatic for darkeyes (hence Drehy is not maligned) and it would be harder for Adolin to come out? 

To be clear, I'm not saying that Alethkar being liberal in this regard is a bad thing, i'm just not sure I find it believable - societies in which homosexuality is accepted often do not restrict the behaviour of men in any regard (tho tradionally women have always been restricted in both their occupations and their expression of sexuality) - I'm think for example about ancient Greece here - Athens particularly - where homosexuality amongst men was considered perfectly acceptable, but men still needed to get married etc in order to have children. Women, in contrast were essentially relegated to the role of housewife/mother with no choice in the matter. 

Thoughts? Or is this too off topic?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Yeah, and just look at Adolin's internal thinking there! He was thinking about Kaladin when sewing. "That befuddled expression alone made the work worthwhile." It's almost as if Adolin sewed the outfit not only for himself but to specifically prompt a reaction out of Kaladin! 

Oh god, you guys are converting me.

[Vissy]

33 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Oh god, you guys are converting me.

Welcome aboard the HMS Kadolin, we have great catering. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Vissy

[StormingTexan he/him]

Really great points being made in this thread. Great job outlining this @Dreamstorm ! Honestly I could easily see this even if it is unlikely.  Not only have  some amazing points and observations been made in this thread but I also think it would be a refreshing change. That being said it kills one of the best relationships in SA for me. Their relationship for me started in the 4 vs 1 duel. Adolin's display of solidarity going to prison for Kaladin was amazing. Their friendship blossomed further in OB. When Adolin was willing to step aside for Kaladin that to me was the epitome of respect and friendship. I like the purity of their friendship and would hate to see a messy romance get in the way. Sometimes a true friendship is just as satisfying as a romantic one and I feel like this is the case with Adolin and Kaladin. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

8 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Really great points being made in this thread. Great job outlining this @Dreamstorm ! Honestly I could easily see this even if it is unlikely.  Not only have  some amazing points and observations been made in this thread but I also think it would be a refreshing change. That being said it kills one of the best relationships in SA for me. Their relationship for me started in the 4 vs 1 duel. Adolin's display of solidarity going to prison for Kaladin was amazing. Their friendship blossomed further in OB. When Adolin was willing to step aside for Kaladin that to me was the epitome of respect and friendship. I like the purity of their friendship and would hate to see a messy romance get in the way. Sometimes a true friendship is just as satisfying as a romantic one and I feel like this is the case with Adolin and Kaladin. 

I agree their friendship by itself is very beautiful. It was one of the first posts I made when I finished OB. I would honestly be happy with either a close friendship or a romance, I just hope that there continue to be scenes with them together regardless of which path their relationship takes. I truly, truly hope Shallan and Adolin marrying does not affect Kaladin's relationship with Adolin in any way (meaning, it doesn't stop or become uncomfortable). I suspect it won't, but I'm always going to worry about one of the best friendships I've ever read. A romance might be fun, and would be unique, but if it doesn't happen (which it probably won't) what we already have is still great.

[Comatose he/him]

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree, although I wonder if he would be less effective if he did it consciously? He is writing more instinctively (perhaps?) at this point and may not be aiming at Adolin being gay/bi and therefore this aspect of the character is coming out (pun intended) essentially by mistake. I think his own concern about his ability to do a same-sex relationship justice might make it feel stilted to read? If he can relax into it, then I agree he could do very well, but until he feels he can relax, he might not manage the tone the way it appears between Kaladin and Adolin (esp from Adolin's side). 

(BTW @Comatose I really appreciate your comment confirming this is your personal opinion - it did come across that way, but the confirmation opens the door to dissenting view greatly and is a welcome addition! Thankyou!)

Back to the main aspect of this thread, as @Dreamstorm knows, I heavily ship Shalladin, but I can definitely get behind Kadolin as either an AU/fanfic idea because the canon background is definitely there. For me, Kaladin reads as straight - no, ifs or buts, I'm afraid, but if there are genuine seeds of romantic affection here, I personally would want it to be one sided on Adolin's part. It would be an interesting arc of genuine unrequited love which we haven't seen from Sanderon (iirc - perhaps if there are good examples but I can't think of any?) 

2nd Mistborn trilogy spoiler:

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I personally don't see Marasi/Wax as unrequited in the true sense - Marasi her worships him and grows out of it. It isnt a tragedy for her

I could see this adding well into the storyline in terms of a conflict within Adolin - his desire to be perceived as the perfect prince (ok that may be a bit hyperbolic, but he does make a serious effort) and his perfect marriage to Shallan, versus his own desires. It would be an interesting idea that actually Shallan and Adolin would break up because of Adolin's feelings for Kaladin - currently I personally don't have high hopes for Shallan/Adolin (as is well known) and this would be a much more interesting turn of events than Shallan deciding she has made a mistake (well I think so anyway - it is less predictable). 

As to comments regarding the idea of making it a threesome, I personally don't see it. I can see Shadolin (I don't like it at the moment, but I can see it working longer term), Shalladin, and Kadolin all having potential, but the idea of it being an all in doesn't sit right with me - there is too much conflict. I am not against the concept in principle, but I can't see these particular three characters reconciling their differences well enough as 3 equal partners in a stable manner - it (to me) only works if there is a pair and a singleton where the reconciliation happens on different levels, probably after a great deal of conflict. If someone could explain to me how conflicts like the Sadeas murder (which I see Kal having problems with), the death of Helaran (which is obviously bother ing Shallan) and the huge lies/absence of truths that Adolin has got from Shallan while she has opened up (in part) to Kaladin could all be resolved satisfactorily? I don't see those all being fixed whist maintaining the level of trust needed between all partners to have a three-way relationship.

I agree with pretty much everything you pointed out here.  I really love unrequited love stories, and I think this one would have some interesting twists and turns to keep it from falling into tropes.  I can see the plotline of Adolin coming to terms with his sexuality and his love and respect for Shallan being a really interesting plot line to follow.  I would separate, I think, his desire to be a perfect prince (which he gets away from in OB) with his desire to be perfectly masculine and live up to his father.  With Evi raising Adolin and Renarin to be more sensitive and emotionally intelligent than your average Alethi male, I'm sure Adolin faced a lot of pressure to 'man up' as a child.  Masculine arts, such as dueling, seem to have come easily to him, but he lacks the temperament of 'role models' like Gavilar, Sadeas, and the Blackthorn.  

Taking this a step further, now I am thinking about Adolin's shame over Dalinar's loss of reputation in WoK (in our scenario) would come partially from the internal pressure he feels to fit in.  After trying for so long to fit in by emulating his father, watching Dalinar become the odd man out could have been really difficult for him.  

I agree 100% on the three way relationship not being the way to go here.  I would love if Brandon explored a poly relationship at some point, but personally I do not like the idea of A-S-K being that relationship.  

3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Greywatch I love it!  I think we see Kaladin's changed viewpoint of Adolin very early on in OB.  Contrast what comes off as disparagement of Adolin's fashion in WoR when Kaladin sees Adolin looking at the fashion folio ("You're spending the highstorm looking for new clothing?") with Kaladin's first mention of Adolin in OB ("Roshone wore a lighteyes' coat that was several seasons out of fashion - Adolin would have shaken his head at that.")  I also like that while Syl (possibly on her Shallphrena agenda, ha @Vissy) has to prompt Kaladin to think about Shallan (and in fact Kal turns this conversation around to being about Adolin), Kaladin spontaneously thinks about Adolin on his own.  Hmmmm 

One of my swooniest moment in OB (I obviously like many of these) is when Adolin shows the group his hand-sewn outfit before they arrive in Celebrant.  It just reads (in my totally neutral opinion ) like Adolin was trying to show off for Kaladin, and that "broad chest" observation could belong in any romance novel 

 

I hesitantly agree, but I was a little mixed on Drehy in OB, actually.  Well, not actually Drehy himself.  I thought the character was well done and not a caricature of a gay man, which is my biggest worry (and Brandon's too, by what he's said), and I loved Lopen's little moment with Drehy's boyfriend after Thaylen City.  That moment added a lot of depth to the Drehy/Dru (Druhy?) relationship while at the same time reminding us readers that Drehy was still missing out there.  (Brandon does moments like these exceptionally well.)  I'm just not sure how I feel about the mentions of Drehy's sexuality in the Bridge Four viewpoints in part 2.  I get that Sigzil's part was meant to show contrasting attitudes to homosexuality on Roshar, and the dialogue in Rlain's part was part of fleshing out Kaladin's character by showing how insensitive he can be at times (like with the Lyn-as-only-a-scribe scene), but I guess altogether it felt a bit heavy-handed and forced to me.  It doesn't help that even a mention of the "gay equals feminine" (or the equally upsetting "lesbian equals masculine") stereotype gets my hackles up in a major way.  If you're inclined, I'd be curious to get your perspective on the handling of Drehy though!  (I have definitely appreciated your perspectives on this thread!)

This aligns with my feelings of how I view some of the handling of Drehy.  That being said, if Adolin does turn out to be gay, I will be beyond impressed with Brandon's handling of it.  I would consider the development to this point of Adolin (if he is indeed a gay man) to be one of the best I've read, which is especially impressive in light of the fact we know this is outside of Brandon's comfort zone.  I do think the hardest part to write would be the actual coming out and thus yet to come (more how it's accepted by our other characters, though the heavy-handed emphasis in the Drehy arc that homosexuality is not a big deal in Alethkar does leave us in a situation where the other characters could essentially ignore it and have that fit into our world-building so far, hmmm.)  It makes me wonder again about the story of real-life Drehy especially if he is/was LDS, and how real Drehy's perspective could help Brandon keep the development believable.  (I always end up convincing myself this could actually happen )

I was referring to Adolin and Kaladin when I said Brandon has pretty much written a queer viewpoint relationship (you may have realized that but I wasn't certain from your response and wanted to make sure).  

On Drehy - I felt uncomfortable with the discussion of masculinity and same-sex attraction, but in the end I decided I liked it because it made me feel uncomfortable.  While problematic, these conversations are ones that happen all the time in real life, and it made sense for the Bridgemen who, despite their acceptance of Drehy, might not be familiar with the views of a minority group.  It definitely made me squirm in my seat reading it though, so I had to consider it really carefully and determine whether the writing was making me uncomfortable because it was forced or poorly done, or whether the situation was merely being accurately depicted as awkward.  

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I must say that Alethkar being ok with homosexuality strikes me a a bit odd. I mean they heavily divide the gender roles such that I don't quite see how it would work for a same-sex couple to easily operate - for example men can't read/write the full language meaning they need female relatives to scribe for them including in the business world. I also got the impression that business itself belongs in the "male province" of gendered occupations so a woman couldn't operate a business without a man? I would ahve thought that a society that heavily dictates what a man or woman can or can't do, even in their leisure time, would also be highly dictatorial about how romance would operate? 

Perhaps it is less dogmatic for darkeyes (hence Drehy is not maligned) and it would be harder for Adolin to come out? 

To be clear, I'm not saying that Alethkar being liberal in this regard is a bad thing, i'm just not sure I find it believable - societies in which homosexuality is accepted often do not restrict the behaviour of men in any regard (tho tradionally women have always been restricted in both their occupations and their expression of sexuality) - I'm think for example about ancient Greece here - Athens particularly - where homosexuality amongst men was considered perfectly acceptable, but men still needed to get married etc in order to have children. Women, in contrast were essentially relegated to the role of housewife/mother with no choice in the matter. 

Thoughts? Or is this too off topic?

I had the same thought about a highly gendered society like Alethkar's stance on sexuality, but I think the greek comparison works well.  While it seems gay men in Alethkar aren't expected to marry (at least darkeyes ones aren't - Adolin may have been expected to), as in Ancient Greece, it seems men with a sexual preference for other men are somewhat accepted so long as they continue to conform to traditionally masculine roles.  

What's interesting about this set up is that although couples like Drehy and Dru (or Adolin and... whoever) do not face much direct discrimination from other people, they would still be facing a great deal of systemic discrimination, in that the culture of Alethkar makes their lives more difficult because of their sexual orientation.  I can totally see gay and lesbian couples facing all kinds of disadvantages because they lack someone of the other gender to fulfill certain duties and roles. I'll bet that same sex couples are sometimes treated as 'single' for some purposes (hiring a woman to read and write, as you suggested, or a man to perform physical labour, where normally one's spouse might).  

7 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Really great points being made in this thread. Great job outlining this @Dreamstorm ! Honestly I could easily see this even if it is unlikely.  Not only have  some amazing points and observations been made in this thread but I also think it would be a refreshing change. That being said it kills one of the best relationships in SA for me. Their relationship for me started in the 4 vs 1 duel. Adolin's display of solidarity going to prison for Kaladin was amazing. Their friendship blossomed further in OB. When Adolin was willing to step aside for Kaladin that to me was the epitome of respect and friendship. I like the purity of their friendship and would hate to see a messy romance get in the way. Sometimes a true friendship is just as satisfying as a romantic one and I feel like this is the case with Adolin and Kaladin. 

I also agree that a platonic relationship can be just as or more satisfying than a romantic one.  In fact, I think romance is often over done in books, and that there should be more where platonic relationships are highlighted as compelling.  That being said, my preference would be for greater representation of opposite sex platonic relationships and more romantic queer relationships, as things tend to skew the other way.  

I'm really hoping Kaladin/Shallan develop a great friendship going forward, since I feel that a good example of a man and a woman being friends with a deep and complex relationship would be really cool to read.  

[StormingTexan he/him]

3 hours ago, Comatose said:

I also agree that a platonic relationship can be just as or more satisfying than a romantic one.  In fact, I think romance is often over done in books, and that there should be more where platonic relationships are highlighted as compelling.  That being said, my preference would be for greater representation of opposite sex platonic relationships and more romantic queer relationships, as things tend to skew the other way.  

I think that is what I wouldn't like about a romantic relationship between Adolin and Kaladin. It is just so overly used in fantasy for the friends to become romantically involved. In the real world we have all fallen for a friend it happens and I get why authors use it but I read books to escape the real world. Plus lets be real how often does that work out? 

I also 100% agree with you that there should be more opposite sex platonic relationships and I'd be open to more same sex relationships. I respect Brandon for his stance that he does not feel comfortable writing a gay main character but I think he is selling his self short a little. He's done a good job with addicts and suffers of PTSD both of which I am pretty sure he does not have personal experience with. I think he would do fine with this characterization as well. 

 

Edit to add: You guys have all now convinced me Adolin is gay btw. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by StormingTexan

[Dreamstorm]

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I must say that Alethkar being ok with homosexuality strikes me a a bit odd. I mean they heavily divide the gender roles such that I don't quite see how it would work for a same-sex couple to easily operate - for example men can't read/write the full language meaning they need female relatives to scribe for them including in the business world. I also got the impression that business itself belongs in the "male province" of gendered occupations so a woman couldn't operate a business without a man? I would ahve thought that a society that heavily dictates what a man or woman can or can't do, even in their leisure time, would also be highly dictatorial about how romance would operate? 

Perhaps it is less dogmatic for darkeyes (hence Drehy is not maligned) and it would be harder for Adolin to come out? 

To be clear, I'm not saying that Alethkar being liberal in this regard is a bad thing, i'm just not sure I find it believable - societies in which homosexuality is accepted often do not restrict the behaviour of men in any regard (tho tradionally women have always been restricted in both their occupations and their expression of sexuality) - I'm think for example about ancient Greece here - Athens particularly - where homosexuality amongst men was considered perfectly acceptable, but men still needed to get married etc in order to have children. Women, in contrast were essentially relegated to the role of housewife/mother with no choice in the matter. 

Thoughts? Or is this too off topic?

I see your point about how Alethi society is built around heterosexual partnerships, especially for lighteyes.  And there is definitely mention in WoK (I think) about how Dalinar did not have a wife to burn him prayers or act as his scribe (he notes he misses Jasnah), plus I believe this is hinted at as being part of the reason Adolin needs to get married.  That being said, we do have an excellent example in Amaram of a lighteyes who was never married to a woman, and yet that did not impede his station or reputation.  (Jasnah could also be an example of this on the side of an unmarried woman, though she is a more "unique" situation than Amaram - a princess - and there is also judgment regarding her unmarried status.)  So, I think if (big if) the Alethi see a man in a gay relationship as the same as an unmarried man, the idea of a gay relationship could be received without little fanfare.

Where I think this really gets tricky is when you consider heirs, as Adolin is highprince.  However, his character arc already sees him moving away from what his father would consider one's "duty", so perhaps not producing heirs can be part of that.  Personally, I would find the idea that being the only objection Alethi society would have to Adolin dating/marrying a man (a shrug besides the heir issue) to be interesting in and of itself.

4 hours ago, Comatose said:

I would separate, I think, his desire to be a perfect prince (which he gets away from in OB) with his desire to be perfectly masculine and live up to his father.  With Evi raising Adolin and Renarin to be more sensitive and emotionally intelligent than your average Alethi male, I'm sure Adolin faced a lot of pressure to 'man up' as a child.  Masculine arts, such as dueling, seem to have come easily to him, but he lacks the temperament of 'role models' like Gavilar, Sadeas, and the Blackthorn. 

Taking this a step further, now I am thinking about Adolin's shame over Dalinar's loss of reputation in WoK (in our scenario) would come partially from the internal pressure he feels to fit in.  After trying for so long to fit in by emulating his father, watching Dalinar become the odd man out could have been really difficult for him. 

This is a fantastic take on Adolin's reactions in WoK, which I think carries through to the loss of his highborn friendships in WoR.  It actually follows rather naturally that he has these false friendships where he has had to "play" a part in order to fit in (and note, his social activities with these friends were partially centered around taking girls on dates, so his courting can be seen as part of that role of fitting in), and once these relationships keeping him on the (literal) straight and narrow start to fall away - his closest friend now is a darkeyes after all, Radiant or not - he can slowly start peeling back the layers to his true self.  His abdicating his duty as king (something I've been very ambivalent about as a positive thing in general) could be seen as part of that general move towards being more "himself" and less who he thinks he should be.

4 hours ago, Comatose said:

I was referring to Adolin and Kaladin when I said Brandon has pretty much written a queer viewpoint relationship (you may have realized that but I wasn't certain from your response and wanted to make sure).  

On Drehy - I felt uncomfortable with the discussion of masculinity and same-sex attraction, but in the end I decided I liked it because it made me feel uncomfortable.  While problematic, these conversations are ones that happen all the time in real life, and it made sense for the Bridgemen who, despite their acceptance of Drehy, might not be familiar with the views of a minority group.  It definitely made me squirm in my seat reading it though, so I had to consider it really carefully and determine whether the writing was making me uncomfortable because it was forced or poorly done, or whether the situation was merely being accurately depicted as awkward.  

Yep, I got it, I just skipped over joining that to Drehy as the gay character we've seen in SA   I really like your take on these things.  I tend to get uncomfortable, and it makes me switch off my brain a little bit.  I have a very kneejerk reaction to these sort of discussions IRL too, which isn't always... the most productive way to get a point across.

3 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Edit to add: You guys have all now convinced me Adolin is gay btw.

Ahhhh, so bad for me!  Need to temper my feelings that this is viable...

Edited February 28, 2018 by Dreamstorm

[maxal she/her]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:25 AM, Dreamstorm said:

• While Adolin is often seen as an admirer of women’s physical beauty, he doesn’t seem eager to have a physically intimate relationship, and in fact we can take his “missteps” in these relationships as a way of avoiding physical intimacy; if he doesn’t let a relationship progress past the introductory stage, he won’t have to be physically intimate.  His one relationship which progresses to a stage with any physical intimacy (Shallan) is a relationship where his partner is determined to make it work, even ignoring his glances at other women (a tactic Adolin has used in the past to escape early from relationships with women.)  When Shallan initiates physical contact with Adolin, he is hesitant to respond to it, although eventually he does reciprocate, likely because he knows this is what is expected as him.  I suspect while Adolin is not incapable of romantic feelings for a woman, he strongly would lean towards a relationship with a man.  We can also take Adolin’s extreme love of fashion as a hint towards his sexual preference; though we do not want to reduce gay men to stereotypes, a love of and focus on fashion is something which in popular culture (and real life, though this obviously varies) is associated with gay men.

I will play the devil's advocate: I never read neither Adolin nor Kaladin as gay nor bisexual, both have a definite attraction to women and neither expressed physical attraction towards men or interest into such manner. I do not find any of the suggested passages sufficient  to express real physical and emotional attraction to the same gender. Mind, readers can interpret the narrative in various ways, but Adolin/Kaladin as a romantic ship does not work out for me, neither does Adolin work out as a closeted homosexual.

I quoted this passage because while it is a plausible modern day explanation for why a young man might struggle with relationships with women, I do not find it explains Adolin's behavior here. The one aspect of Adolin's character which is constant throughout three books is uncertainty, doubt and feeling unworthy. The one WoB we have on the matter explicitly states Adolin issues arise from him not feeling he is good enough, up to the task, worthy. I thus do not feel him being secretly homosexual explains the behavior moreover since Alethkar appears not to care so much about it. Sigzil is practically chastise for thinking it is improper for Drehy to date a young man without having filled out the right paper work. 

I personally found interesting Brandon wrote a character enjoying fashion and sewing without making him gay which would be the stereotype. 

Hence, I will keep on sticking with the actual canon. I rather like it 

[PhineasGage]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

The one WoB we have on the matter explicitly states Adolin issues arise from him not feeling he is good enough, up to the task, worthy

Hi maxal, which WoB do you mean? The one regarding him tending to unconsciously self sabotage himself in relationships? If so, doesn't the fact that it is subconscious rather undermine you point about him feeling unworthy? The canon (ie the book not the WoBs) supports both the read of homosexuality and the absence of it because Adolin has not specifically confronted this idea and either confirmed or refuted it. Thus it is surely open to interpretation?

I happen to agree that Adolin probably isn't meant to be gay, the point is that the canon actually allows him to be, We are not arguing this over Kaladin because everyone here seems to feel that there are no Kal thoughts that trend towards attraction to Adolin (or any other man for that matter) which is a strong contrast to how we see Adolin think where we see him more  poetic about Kaladin even than Shallan. It opens up the possibility and thus the discussion.

 

Edit: for clarity this is the WoB I am talking about: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13-calamity-austin-signing/#e4892

Edited February 28, 2018 by PhineasGage
added link for clarity

[Vissy]

I could totally see Adolin as being bi as well. 

[Dreamstorm]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

I quoted this passage because while it is a plausible modern day explanation for why a young man might struggle with relationships with women, I do not find it explains Adolin's behavior here. The one aspect of Adolin's character which is constant throughout three books is uncertainty, doubt and feeling unworthy. The one WoB we have on the matter explicitly states Adolin issues arise from him not feeling he is good enough, up to the task, worthy. I thus do not feel him being secretly homosexual explains the behavior moreover since Alethkar appears not to care so much about it. Sigzil is practically chastise for thinking it is improper for Drehy to date a young man without having filled out the right paper work. 

I don't disagree with your conclusion.  The most straight-forward (and I'm sure consensus) read is that Adolin is straight; he dates women and marries a woman in the text after all!  I'm just rather attached to the alternative   You have a good point; why would Adolin not be out if he was in fact gay?  My counterpoint is that even though we know homosexuality is accepted in Alethkar, it doesn't seem to be that prominent; of all of the men we've seen on the page, we only have two (Drehy and Dru) who we know are gay.  I don't think Adolin is consciously repressing his romantic feelings towards men, but instead that he doesn't know how to process them in the first place.  Adolin is also in the situation where he's been told (both explicitly and implicitly) that he needs to marry a woman, as that is the "normal" structure of Alethi relationships (male/female pairs with duties split along gender lines) and he also has the added pressure that he should produce an heir.  I think we could have a plausible situation where Adolin primarily (maybe exclusively) sees male/female pairings and since he has been told he needs to marry a woman for lineage purposes, he sees that as the only possible option.  This is where I could see his friendship with Drehy coming into play, as a way to give Adolin awareness that these rather intense feelings he has for Kaladin are actually more than just friendship.  But, I may be just a teeny tiny bit biased on the matter 

[Vissy]

So actually Alethi culture isn't homophobic, but the universe Sanderson wrote... kind of is? Given how (apparently) incredibly rare such relationships are in it.

[Dreamstorm]

It could be that the incidence of homosexuality is lower on Roshar than it is on Earth? That’s the only explanation I can think of for acceptance plus low number of same-sex relationships. As a couple people have mentioned though, there’s definitely a dichotomy between the strict enforcement of gender roles and the acceptance of same sex relationships.

[Comatose he/him]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

Hence, I will keep on sticking with the actual canon. I rather like it 

Accept the actual canon as truth?  What is this ridiculousity?  

Obviously you are expressing a totally valid viewpoint here (and thank-you for sharing it!).  For me, the fact that Brandon has chosen a different route doesn't take away the fun of theorizing the paths not traveled, even as I enjoy the canon path.

18 hours ago, maxal said:

I will play the devil's advocate: I never read neither Adolin nor Kaladin as gay nor bisexual, both have a definite attraction to women and neither expressed physical attraction towards men or interest into such manner. I do not find any of the suggested passages sufficient  to express real physical and emotional attraction to the same gender. Mind, readers can interpret the narrative in various ways, but Adolin/Kaladin as a romantic ship does not work out for me, neither does Adolin work out as a closeted homosexual.

I quoted this passage because while it is a plausible modern day explanation for why a young man might struggle with relationships with women, I do not find it explains Adolin's behavior here. The one aspect of Adolin's character which is constant throughout three books is uncertainty, doubt and feeling unworthy. The one WoB we have on the matter explicitly states Adolin issues arise from him not feeling he is good enough, up to the task, worthy. I thus do not feel him being secretly homosexual explains the behavior moreover since Alethkar appears not to care so much about it. Sigzil is practically chastise for thinking it is improper for Drehy to date a young man without having filled out the right paper work. 

I personally found interesting Brandon wrote a character enjoying fashion and sewing without making him gay which would be the stereotype. 

I have bolded a few points for the purpose of discussion.  To be clear, I do not think there is anything wrong or incorrect about the statements, they just piqued my interest and I wanted to make the following observations:

(1) Sufficient Expression of Attraction - The only thing I would add to this point is that, if he is not aware of his attraction, the attraction may be subliminal rather than explicit.  Some of the passages quoted above show an appreciation of Kaladin that some are arguing implies an attraction that Adolin himself might not be aware of.  If he were not aware of his same-sex attraction, then the expressions would not be explicit.  

(2) Feelings of Unworthiness - What if the feelings of unworthiness you identified are a reason for Adolin not to examine his sexuality?  He feels unworthy, and wants to live up to his father's legacy.  Many if not all of his role models are straight.  Regardless of whether or not people would look down on him for being same-sex attracted, his feelings of not being worthy might make him hesitant to even examine himself in depth, preferring to focus on who he wants to be/become.  

(3) Stereotypes - I am of two minds on the stereotypes thing.  On one hand, it is frustrating when characters from minority groups are conglomerations of stereotypes and do not feel like true individuals.  On the other hand, as many (but not all) stereotypes are based in truth, portraying a gay character who is 100% not stereotypically gay also seems problematic to me.  Stereotypes can be used to make harmful generalizations, but commonly held interests are part of what forms community for minority groups.  I think Adolin is a wonderfully imagined three dimensional character, and so I see him being stereotypically interested in fashion (if he were gay) as realistic and relateable, rather than problematic.  His interest in fashion does not define him, but as I wrote above, I think it does comment on his hyper awareness of how others perceive him, whatever the root cause.  

 

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

 My counterpoint is that even though we know homosexuality is accepted in Alethkar, it doesn't seem to be that prominent; of all of the men we've seen on the page, we only have two (Drehy and Dru) who we know are gay.  I don't think Adolin is consciously repressing his romantic feelings towards men, but instead that he doesn't know how to process them in the first place.  Adolin is also in the situation where he's been told (both explicitly and implicitly) that he needs to marry a woman, as that is the "normal" structure of Alethi relationships (male/female pairs with duties split along gender lines) and he also has the added pressure that he should produce an heir.  I think we could have a plausible situation where Adolin primarily (maybe exclusively) sees male/female pairings and since he has been told he needs to marry a woman for lineage purposes, he sees that as the only possible option.  This is where I could see his friendship with Drehy coming into play, as a way to give Adolin awareness that these rather intense feelings he has for Kaladin are actually more than just friendship.  But, I may be just a teeny tiny bit biased on the matter 

I am perhaps a little too attached to this line of reasoning, mostly because I relate to Adolin on many levels, and this is similar to my own coming out journey.  I have always known, for example, that my family and friends were accepting of same-sex attracted people, and yet, I did not realize I was gay until I started meeting and spending time with other same-sex attracted people.  Before that, I thought "Do I like guys? Nope!" and proceeded to date women, thinking that was the end of the matter.  However, when I started spending time with other gay men, I started to realize how much I had in common with them, and it was only then that I was able to examine my sexuality on a deeper level, and come to the realization that I was, in fact, gay.  

So, that is a long (and potentially over-sharing) way of saying I 100% agree with this.  Even if Adolin knows he would be accepted if he came out as same sex attracted, that does not mean he is aware of his own attraction to men.  He may be attached--as I, in hindsight, was--to the image of a certain future involving a female partner, and likely does not have any same sex attracted friends or role-models to compare himself to.  

3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

It could be that the incidence of homosexuality is lower on Roshar than it is on Earth? That’s the only explanation I can think of for acceptance plus low number of same-sex relationships. As a couple people have mentioned though, there’s definitely a dichotomy between the strict enforcement of gender roles and the acceptance of same sex relationships.

The issue could also be one of concentration.  Most of our viewpoint characters are straight, and it is not clear that Shallan is aware she is Bi (I am guessing not since Brandon didn't even know).  The general statistic I have heard thrown around in our world is 10% of the population or so is same-sex attracted (if I'm wrong on that, I do not think it is detrimental to my point, but feel free to correct me).  If I think of my own friends, however, I would say close to 50-60% of people I regularly associate with are same sex attracted.  In my workplace (which I estimate employs 80-100 people), to my knowledge I am the only gay person.  The purpose of these examples is to demonstrate that the distribution of minority groups (especially invisible ones like sexual minorities) is not uniform.  Like attracts like, and you will often find minority groups existing in pockets.  

So, if Drehy, as an out gay man, for example, was a viewpoint character, I would guess we would see a lot more same sex attracted Alethi (surely Dru wasn't the only other person, or the two of them finding each other would be rather implausible).  

The other issue is that there may be other characters we have seen who are same sex attracted, but their preference has not become relevant to the story yet (as was the case of Drehy prior to OB).  

All of this is just to say I think it is too soon to rule out that the Rosharan incidence of same sex attraction is similar to Earth's.  

[maxal she/her]

13 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Hi maxal, which WoB do you mean? The one regarding him tending to unconsciously self sabotage himself in relationships? If so, doesn't the fact that it is subconscious rather undermine you point about him feeling unworthy? The canon (ie the book not the WoBs) supports both the read of homosexuality and the absence of it because Adolin has not specifically confronted this idea and either confirmed or refuted it. Thus it is surely open to interpretation?

I happen to agree that Adolin probably isn't meant to be gay, the point is that the canon actually allows him to be, We are not arguing this over Kaladin because everyone here seems to feel that there are no Kal thoughts that trend towards attraction to Adolin (or any other man for that matter) which is a strong contrast to how we see Adolin think where we see him more  poetic about Kaladin even than Shallan. It opens up the possibility and thus the discussion.

 

Edit: for clarity this is the WoB I am talking about: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13-calamity-austin-signing/#e4892

Yes, this is the WoB. In it, Brandon says: "He's a little bit scared of being good at relationships". My interpretation of this WoB, combined with the numerous instances where Adolin expresses not feeling inadequate next others, especially Shallan, is his struggles with others come more out a lack of self-esteem more than any other causes. I also like the passage, in OB, where Shallan says: "Thank you for being you", to which Adolin answers: "Everyone else was taken. I think it truly denotes how Adolin just doesn't think he is worth sufficiently when compared to others. If I dig deeper, I would argue Adolin avoids getting close to people to prevent being criticized and deemed unworthy as Dalinar did with him one time too often as he was growing up. 

Is it open to interpretation? It depends. As I said, I absolutely do not read Adolin as homosexual nor do I think the text is hinting nor suggesting it. The text is however strongly suggesting Adolin is attracted to women and this interest doesn't seem feign. Had he been a closeted homosexual refusing to admit his preferences or not being able to realize it, then I would have expected him to prefer the company of men. I would have expect him to seek other men, just for companionship and to go backward into his dates, to not really be interested whereas the Adolin we read is always excited to start a new relationship, even if they all end up falling. 

I honestly do not find the canon is allowing Adolin much room to be homosexual. He never has physical reactions whenever being near men whereas he blushes next to Shallan, he has passionspren crystallizing around him when she kisses him and he goes "Wow" when she kisses him passionately after the chasm scenes. To me, those are very clear obvious sign of both attraction and sexual interest into a young woman which is not what I would expect out of a homosexual man. Arguably, I am not a homosexual man, but I am assuming it is no different than myself with men. 

7 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't disagree with your conclusion.  The most straight-forward (and I'm sure consensus) read is that Adolin is straight; he dates women and marries a woman in the text after all!  I'm just rather attached to the alternative   You have a good point; why would Adolin not be out if he was in fact gay?  My counterpoint is that even though we know homosexuality is accepted in Alethkar, it doesn't seem to be that prominent; of all of the men we've seen on the page, we only have two (Drehy and Dru) who we know are gay.  I don't think Adolin is consciously repressing his romantic feelings towards men, but instead that he doesn't know how to process them in the first place.  Adolin is also in the situation where he's been told (both explicitly and implicitly) that he needs to marry a woman, as that is the "normal" structure of Alethi relationships (male/female pairs with duties split along gender lines) and he also has the added pressure that he should produce an heir.  I think we could have a plausible situation where Adolin primarily (maybe exclusively) sees male/female pairings and since he has been told he needs to marry a woman for lineage purposes, he sees that as the only possible option.  This is where I could see his friendship with Drehy coming into play, as a way to give Adolin awareness that these rather intense feelings he has for Kaladin are actually more than just friendship.  But, I may be just a teeny tiny bit biased on the matter 

OB gave us a few inklings of how homosexuality is perceived in Alethkar. The Drehy short story highlighted Alethi didn't seem to care much about it and if there are people who's criticize it, most seem to be perfectly fine with it. I think we should also mention Shallan thinking Jasnah perhaps prefers women. This thought does not come across as shocking to Shallan nor does she seem to think it would be unacceptable for an Alethi princess to be prefer women.

I say, based on the few examples we have, Alethkar does not shun on homosexuality which can be odd considering the traditional male/female roles, but so is canon so far. Thus while it seems a reasonable explanation, I find it does not match what we actually know on the matter.

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

It could be that the incidence of homosexuality is lower on Roshar than it is on Earth? That’s the only explanation I can think of for acceptance plus low number of same-sex relationships. As a couple people have mentioned though, there’s definitely a dichotomy between the strict enforcement of gender roles and the acceptance of same sex relationships.

I think it is just a matter of how many characters we have been presented. Some people can spend a lifetime without ever meeting one homosexual individuals but, on my street, two houses are owned by two male homosexual couples, one of them with two young children. I think we have to keep in mind we have only met a very small sample of the individuals on Roshar. Kaladin's reaction to Drehy seems to indicate he has known gay men before, this didn't come across as shocking or hard to comprehend, hence likely there are more, but the narrative isn't showing them to us.

2 hours ago, Comatose said:

Accept the actual canon as truth?  What is this ridiculousity?  

Obviously you are expressing a totally valid viewpoint here (and thank-you for sharing it!).  For me, the fact that Brandon has chosen a different route doesn't take away the fun of theorizing the paths not traveled, even as I enjoy the canon path.

I have bolded a few points for the purpose of discussion.  To be clear, I do not think there is anything wrong or incorrect about the statements, they just piqued my interest and I wanted to make the following observations:

(1) Sufficient Expression of Attraction - The only thing I would add to this point is that, if he is not aware of his attraction, the attraction may be subliminal rather than explicit.  Some of the passages quoted above show an appreciation of Kaladin that some are arguing implies an attraction that Adolin himself might not be aware of.  If he were not aware of his same-sex attraction, then the expressions would not be explicit.  

(2) Feelings of Unworthiness - What if the feelings of unworthiness you identified are a reason for Adolin not to examine his sexuality?  He feels unworthy, and wants to live up to his father's legacy.  Many if not all of his role models are straight.  Regardless of whether or not people would look down on him for being same-sex attracted, his feelings of not being worthy might make him hesitant to even examine himself in depth, preferring to focus on who he wants to be/become.  

(3) Stereotypes - I am of two minds on the stereotypes thing.  On one hand, it is frustrating when characters from minority groups are conglomerations of stereotypes and do not feel like true individuals.  On the other hand, as many (but not all) stereotypes are based in truth, portraying a gay character who is 100% not stereotypically gay also seems problematic to me.  Stereotypes can be used to make harmful generalizations, but commonly held interests are part of what forms community for minority groups.  I think Adolin is a wonderfully imagined three dimensional character, and so I see him being stereotypically interested in fashion (if he were gay) as realistic and relateable, rather than problematic.  His interest in fashion does not define him, but as I wrote above, I think it does comment on his hyper awareness of how others perceive him, whatever the root cause.  

1) As I said above, I found there are too many signs of obvious attraction to women to be able to state Adolin has an unconscious attraction to men. I also do not find the few commentaries he has over Kaladin to be romantically infused whereas he does feel passion for Shallan (blushing, passion-spren and so on).

2) Adolin frequently comments on his feeling of inadequacy and not once is it linked to sexuality nor his gender identification. Always it is linked to Dalinar's expectations of him which are to be a honorable man at all time, at all cost. This is where it hurts. I feel if Adolin had issues matching Dalinar because he prefers men over women, then his inner discourse would have been much different.

3) Oddly enough, every single real-life homosexual man I do know falls outside those cliches. I happen to know very heterosexual men loving fashion and taking great care of their physical appearance to the point of obsession (such as refusing to eat a donuts on Fridays because it contains too many calories and it will show when he goes out dating girls ). All of the fashion-related talk I ever had, at work, was with very heterosexual men. On the other hand, some homosexual men I know wouldn't know the difference in between a shirt and shorts  Hence, I don't think much of those stereotypes which seemed to exist mostly because the entertainment industry didn't how how to represent homosexuality and went for the obvious, such as the effeminate man or the manly girl. Hence, I absolutely do not think Adolin's interest in fashion marks him as a potential homosexual. I found it instead marks him as an artistically inclined individual and one having a strong need to express himself is ways which was acceptable to his society considering an entire side of him has been repressed by Alethi standards. By this side, I mean Evi's heritage which is to have real visible emotions, being sensitive and needing to touch other people such as hugging. In other words, being outward: Adolin is a very outward individual in a world where it isn't well seen to be outward. This is how I am reading him anyway.

This being said, this is myself speaking of the book canon. Brandon often said readers were entitled to adapt the canon in which ever ways pleases them. I personally do not find the narrative suggests gay Adolin nor Kaladin, but if it pleases readers to adapt the narrative make them be gay, then well, have fun!

[Comatose he/him]

All good points!  One clarification for point 3 - I didn’t mean to imply that Adolin was gay simply because of his love of fashion (which would be highly erroneous).  All I meant to say is that if Adolin were gay, I would not find his appreciation of fashion problematic.  I agree with your interpretation of his reasons for enjoying fashion.  

[Rainier]

On 2/27/2018 at 8:19 AM, PhineasGage said:

I must say that Alethkar being ok with homosexuality strikes me a a bit odd.

On 2/27/2018 at 8:19 AM, PhineasGage said:

To be clear, I'm not saying that Alethkar being liberal in this regard is a bad thing, i'm just not sure I find it believable

I'm with you here. I didn't find it very believable that nobody cares about homosexuality when the gender roles are so rigid. At the very least, I would expect Drehy to still marry a woman, regardless of who he has sex with. After all, who is going to read for him? Who is going to look after his interests when he cannot look after his own?

The Alethi institution of marriage has very little to do with love. Sex seems to be important only because it produces children. Obviously people still feel the same feelings they always have, and love and romance are absolutely a part of it, but given that literacy is determined by gender, marriage is more about being one half of a whole, and men and women are not compatible in those roles.

Of course, one of the themes of the book is how boundaries are breaking in the face of the apocalypse, so of course I expect these things, but still, it didn't feel realistic.

If I'm being honest, it felt most like Brandon felt the criticism of not including gay characters, so he picked a character and made him the token. It just so happens to be Drehy, but frankly it could have been Teft, Skar, Lopen, or anyone else and it would have felt the same: Brandon checking a box on the diversity checklist.

On 2/27/2018 at 0:00 PM, Comatose said:

While it seems gay men in Alethkar aren't expected to marry (at least darkeyes ones aren't - Adolin may have been expected to), as in Ancient Greece, it seems men with a sexual preference for other men are somewhat accepted so long as they continue to conform to traditionally masculine roles.

Exactly, which makes it even more confusing. Like I said above, I'd have been more understanding if Drehy and Dru were sexual partners who each had a wife, as that would strike me as more reasonable given the strictness of the gender roles. After all, to the Greeks, even though they didn't consider themselves gay as we do, they still demeaned the person in the woman's role, that is, the one being penetrated. They were so misogynistic that being accused of cunnilingus was the ultimate insult: you're such a woman that you give women pleasure!

None of that fits with Drehy being more manly because he's dating a man. That's just.....jarring. I pretty much ignored it as bad writing and kept reading, looking for the good bits (the apocalypse, remember?).

[Snipexe he/him]

@Rainier 

Quote

If I'm being honest, it felt most like Brandon felt the criticism of not including gay characters, so he picked a character and made him the token. It just so happens to be Drehy, but frankly it could have been Teft, Skar, Lopen, or anyone else and it would have felt the same: Brandon checking a box on the diversity checklist.

(My quote wasn’t working right)

Drehy is actually based on one of Brandon’s friends in real life, and Dru is Brandon’s friend’s husband.

On the discussion: I don’t know. I have a really hard time with these kind of threads, and don’t super pay attention to them. I think great evidence has been presented for both sides, and I think the only way this can really be derimined is to RAFO

Edited March 2, 2018 by Snipexe

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm with you here. I didn't find it very believable that nobody cares about homosexuality when the gender roles are so rigid. At the very least, I would expect Drehy to still marry a woman, regardless of who he has sex with. After all, who is going to read for him? Who is going to look after his interests when he cannot look after his own?

The Alethi institution of marriage has very little to do with love. Sex seems to be important only because it produces children. Obviously people still feel the same feelings they always have, and love and romance are absolutely a part of it, but given that literacy is determined by gender, marriage is more about being one half of a whole, and men and women are not compatible in those roles.

Of course, one of the themes of the book is how boundaries are breaking in the face of the apocalypse, so of course I expect these things, but still, it didn't feel realistic.

If I'm being honest, it felt most like Brandon felt the criticism of not including gay characters, so he picked a character and made him the token. It just so happens to be Drehy, but frankly it could have been Teft, Skar, Lopen, or anyone else and it would have felt the same: Brandon checking a box on the diversity checklist.

Exactly, which makes it even more confusing. Like I said above, I'd have been more understanding if Drehy and Dru were sexual partners who each had a wife, as that would strike me as more reasonable given the strictness of the gender roles. After all, to the Greeks, even though they didn't consider themselves gay as we do, they still demeaned the person in the woman's role, that is, the one being penetrated. They were so misogynistic that being accused of cunnilingus was the ultimate insult: you're such a woman that you give women pleasure!

None of that fits with Drehy being more manly because he's dating a man. That's just.....jarring. I pretty much ignored it as bad writing and kept reading, looking for the good bits (the apocalypse, remember?).

Well, the Alethi are tolerant of homosexuality in principle, but that doesn't mean society doesn't pressure them to fit a role. Like, we're ok with this but if you don't have a female relative or money to hire a woman to do this work, your life will be far more difficult. And we only saw the views of one small, fairly liberal group of men. Others might feel differently. Drehy might figure that since he's already been through hell with Bridge 4, he might as well live how he wants. 

For your point on marriage, oaths are important on Roshar. While that attitude would have certainly decreased since the Recreance, I would still expect them to place importance on not breaking vows. In that case, infidelity would be heavily frowned upon. I don't think we've seen anyone cheat on their spouse, though, so it's hard to say how much it still matters in culture. 

Thinking about it, I would expect there to be a higher rate of homosexuality among the Ardentia than in the general populace. There they could find partners without dealing with the difficulties of the defined gender roles. 

[maxal she/her]

On 2/28/2018 at 7:44 PM, Comatose said:

All good points!  One clarification for point 3 - I didn’t mean to imply that Adolin was gay simply because of his love of fashion (which would be highly erroneous).  All I meant to say is that if Adolin were gay, I would not find his appreciation of fashion problematic.  I agree with your interpretation of his reasons for enjoying fashion.  

Ah I meant to say I find Adolin can have an affiliation to fashion no matter what his sexual preferences may be. 

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

If I'm being honest, it felt most like Brandon felt the criticism of not including gay characters, so he picked a character and made him the token. It just so happens to be Drehy, but frankly it could have been Teft, Skar, Lopen, or anyone else and it would have felt the same: Brandon checking a box on the diversity checklist.

Yes and no. I feel one of the problem with the under-representation of homosexual relationship within works of fiction have to do with authors not having the reflex to think of their minor characters as... homosexual. I once read an article on Tor.com on how the key towards having more female characters perhaps was for author to add more women for their tertiary characters as opposed to only think of the main female protagonist. I somehow thought the article applied to homosexual relationships. Hence, while it may be Brandon is not comfortable writing a homosexual main protagonist and it may be he does not want sexuality to be a main theme within his own work. What's left for him is to start to think of his world-building characters as not necessarily hetereosexual. 

I find this is exactly what he did with Drehy. Drehy is not important. Him being homosexual is not important, but it comes across within a casual conversation just as someone may talk about the weather. This perhaps looks like "token representation" or "an item checked out of a list", but it also is a means to strengthen the world-building by allowing characters, even minor characters to be... homosexual. 

Drehy does not like to lead, he prefers to follow and he happens to have a boyfriend. Homosexuality does not need to be broached as a major theme, but it is great to see an author who actually takes care to show it actually exists.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

16 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm with you here. I didn't find it very believable that nobody cares about homosexuality when the gender roles are so rigid. At the very least, I would expect Drehy to still marry a woman, regardless of who he has sex with. After all, who is going to read for him? Who is going to look after his interests when he cannot look after his own?

 

In Hearthstone Kaladin's mother was the only woman that could read (other than the ardents and Laral's tutors). I wouldn't be surprised if gender roles blur a lot towards third nahn and lower, as such as was pointed out above it may well be homosexuality is more accepted for the lower classes. But you raise a good point, having a wife and a partner both makes a lot of sense.