Ciridae Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 I've been thinking about how different the personalities of the various Nahel spren are, and had a little thought/theory about them and the Nahel bond itself. It seems to me like a lot of the spren we see exhibit personality traits that are complementary to those of their bond mates. Kaladin struggles with his depression, he takes things very seriously and has a realistic, if often pessimistic outlook on life. Syl is usually upbeat, optimistic and tries to get him to enjoy life. She encourages him and, like Tien, brings light into Kaladin's life. Lift is spontaneous, reckless, and impulsive. In Edgedancer we learn that Lift's mother and their relationship is a big part of Lift's "inside"- character (for lack of a better term). Wyndle fills the role of Lift's mother in this case. He cares and worries for her, is cautious and tries to get Lift to take care of herself. What little we see of Renarin and Glys also seems to reflect this. Where Renarin is usually reserved and struggles with self-doubt, Glys is excited, jovial and encouraging. Shallan is tricky. The best I can think of is that she is a very intuitive person, where Pattern sees things in a very abstract and literal way. Shallan is very good at understanding her surroundings, and especially other people, but struggles understanding and defining herself. Pattern knows exactly what he is, but he has a hard time comprehending the normalites of human existence (...like most spren. I may be stretching here.) Dalinar and the Stormfather are difficult too. Here I'd argue that the Stormfather is too powerful and specific of a spren for the Radiant to have a very large effect on the personality. We've seen very little of Jasnah and Ivory. I can't come up with much for them. The same applies for Teft, Venli, Malata, Szeth, Lopen and their spren. So to say that spren personify what their Radiant is "missing" or "needs" is an oversimplification, but I do think that the character traits of the Radiant have an effect on the development of the Nahel spren's personality after they cross into the physical. We know the spren already have distinct personalities in the cognitive realm, but Syl says that all spren are essentially the same person (I think this is when she is talking about spren children, can't get the exact quote, sorry). So I think part of what the spren get out of the Nahel bond is a further developed and more individualized personality, compared to their self in the cognitive realm. I'd like to clarify that this is definitely not a hard rule, and the degree in which this phenomenon is expressed very likely varies between the various spren and Radiants. (An alternate or additional explanation for why the personalities of spren and Radiants are the way they are is because reading interactions and dialogue between contrasting characters is far more interesting than if they are similar. Bit of a meta reason that Brandon could have worked off of.) Most of this is conjecture, but even realmatically, I would argue that this is plausible, considering that the Nahel bond is basically a merging of souls where in most cases one of the souls fills the cracks in the other. I think it's satisfyingly symmetrical, and very much in line from what we've seen in Stormlight so far. Let me know what you think 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaladin Zahel Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 I agree with your parentheitcal the most. If Syl was as much of a bummer as Kaladin his story would have been impossible for me to read. However, I do think there is a possible connection with each type of highspren gravitating toward or against their counterparts though. Perhaps some like to have a 'fixer-upper' as seems to be the case with Wyndle, Syl, and Pattern. Alternatively, I would have a hard time imagining Ivory or Nale's spren working well with opposing natured Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Ciridae said: We know the spren already have distinct personalities in the cognitive realm, but Syl says that all spren are essentially the same person (I think this is when she is talking about spren children, can't get the exact quote, sorry). So I think part of what the spren get out of the Nahel bond is a further developed and more individualized personality, compared to their self in the cognitive realm I hadn't carried it quite this far, but I enjoyed been saying something along the same lines for some time because of this. Edited for length. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1640 Quote Brandon Sanderson Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not. This combined with Syl's comment has always made me think that a part of the spren's morality is built out of the subconscious of the Radiant. I'd never thought to carry that to the full personality... I'll have to think about this more. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said: I agree with your parentheitcal the most. If Syl was as much of a bummer as Kaladin his story would have been impossible for me to read. However, I do think there is a possible connection with each type of highspren gravitating toward or against their counterparts though. Perhaps some like to have a 'fixer-upper' as seems to be the case with Wyndle, Syl, and Pattern. Alternatively, I would have a hard time imagining Ivory or Nale's spren working well with opposing natured Knights. Just a minor thing to be aware of, highspren is the name for Skybreaker spren. There's no canon term for what you're referring to, but they're typically called Radiant spren. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted February 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Calderis said: I'd never thought to carry that to the full personality... I think it's a number of factors that end up forming the personality of fully bonded Nahel spren. Their base personality from the CR, with all their memories that slowly return as the bond progresses, the ideals and needs of their Radiant, the new memories they aquire in the PR (like being able to understand human nature) and their own "nature", whatever mini-intent they may have or embody (like protecting or adhering to the law). Depending on spren, Radiant, and circumstance, I think all these factor in to varying degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Leyrann said: Just a minor thing to be aware of, highspren is the name for Skybreaker spren. There's no canon term for what you're referring to, but they're typically called Radiant spren. I think the term Higher Spren is the one used in the books somewhere(Syl talking about the void spren I think), although Radiant spren works too. As for Teft and his spren, I think we have enough to guess. Teft hates himself, is insecure or perhaps very secure about his lack of value, and thinks he deserved the worse. The few comments from the spren show her urging him to set up and be a hero. So again we have a spren providing for a flaw within the radiant. Edited February 23, 2018 by Wandering Investor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 21 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said: I think the term Higher Spren is the one used in the books somewhere(Syl talking about the void spren I think), although Radiant spren works too. You're right. Higher spren is used as well and might even be used in canon (I honestly haven't read the books enough for that if it's mentioned just once or twice). Higher spren vs highspren can be confusing though, so I prefer Radiant spren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 So in a WoB I believe Brandon said that spren seek people who are opposite to them. Like for the two traits of each order, the spren satisfies one and the human satisfies another, it doesn't have to be the same for each bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Quote drabgod In Words of Radiance we find that Pattern is very literal-minded (at least until Shallan corrupted him), and mathematically-inclined. Even his real name is just a mathematical construct. And his head is a fractal. When I think of Pattern, I think "logic" and "truth", not "art" and "lies". If all Cryptics are like this, then I wonder why they (and not artistic spren like Wyndle) are the ones attracted to the artistic Lightweavers. Is this just a matter of "opposites attract"? Are spren naturally drawn to people with personal qualities they themselves do not have? I am reminded of the Divine Attributes, and it seems like Shallan has the "Creative" side while Pattern has the "Honest" side. Is that a coincidence? Brandon Sanderson These things are not coincidences. I have some very interesting rationals why certain spren are involved with certain orders. I never wanted it to be so straightforward as, "Oh, you control pressure? Here's a spren dedicated to that power." I feel there is more intricacy, and honesty, to a system that isn't so "on the nose" as we say in writing. source Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] I want to ask you a question about Pattern. Could you speak to anything about where your idea for... Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I wanted different spren to look drastically different. And, as I was building-- Like, I wanted a lot of the spren of a lot of the Orders of Knights Radiant to kind of have an internal, natural conflict. Like, that's one of the division lines between a spren that's not sapient, and spren that is. For instance, Windrunner, honorspren, right? Honor is about rigidity in a lot of ways, and Syl is the embodiment of a lot of the opposite of that. And Pattern, who is so interested in lies, is a mathematical fractal-- a mathematical equation. This sort of thing, like naming the inkspren Ivory is just-- I want that internal, natural contrast to be part of them. And Pattern, I really wanted a spren that wasn't just another ball of light. 'Cause Syl is basically a ball of light. And a lot of the others are basically balls of light. And I'm like, I need something that's different, I want something that looks different, that feels different. That's where I went. source 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 3 hours ago, MountainKing said: That's really cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted February 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 @MountainKing That's an amazing WoB, I hadn't seen that yet. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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